View Full Version : Kneebar set-up... Criticism please (HERZOG LOOK)

Jeff Doherty
01-29-2011, 02:25 PM
I'm going to post a link in a bit when this video's done uploading on my channel. This is a kneebar I've been landing about 80% of the time I attempt it.

I would like CONSTRUCTIVE crisitism and if you guys have seen it anywhere else.

Jeff Doherty
01-29-2011, 02:43 PM

AJ Camacho
01-29-2011, 03:18 PM
We've drilled a similar counter at my gym but there's some weird details in your video's setup.

In the video your left arm seems easier to attack than the right, so he's attacking an arm that is already out of position and he's ignoring the bicep slicer that you just handed him. In general it seems like he has too much hip mobility and you are still in danger albeit from the slicer instead of the arm bar... he might even have a shot at an omoplata from there.

When we block the arm bar, we usually step over their opposite ass cheek in order to stack and kill their hips... which then leads to where we hit the knee bar.

Sorry if I'm being presumptive feel free to comment back as I posted this more like peer to peer dialog rather than trying to tell you "how it is". Clearly this move has been working for you so I'd like to understand it.

Daniel Valdez
01-29-2011, 05:10 PM
looks sweet, I have seen a very similar counter taught by Erik Paulson.

Kevin Gibbs
01-29-2011, 05:22 PM
^same, I'd be wary of the triangle omoplata and the biceps slicer, but every move has a counter, if its been working for you against people of your level or higher then keep working it.

also you should probably have your partner drill the armbar correctly even if your just demoing a move.

Jonathan Wylie
01-29-2011, 08:50 PM
It looks like there is a pretty sick heal hook there as well.

Cookie Monster
01-29-2011, 09:34 PM
knee bars look so awesome!

great vid !

Jeff Doherty
01-30-2011, 12:32 AM
To AJ: I totally agree with the armbar comments. I understand how it should be a legit attack to show, but I was focusing more on the break than him armbarring me.

All other comments: I'll have to play with the omoplata thing this week.

And as for my success with it, I think I can attribute it to 2 things probably not clearly explained in the short video.
First, I did mention about pinning his opposite leg which I find not only opens up a lot of space to slide through but it also helps jam his hip mobility which in turn helps with my omoplata defense while attempting the move. One thing I notice now that I did, have the palm of my hand on the hamstring so there's something to grip on and it would be harder to pull my arm through for an omoplata that way.
Second, is that I'm really sitting down onto my knee and my uki in the video attested to that being the worst spot. Also, during that, I try to keep the foot doing the knee on stomach close to his hip.

Chris Herzog
01-30-2011, 08:58 AM
Jeff, I've played with and have seen other transitions similar to this one. Other than the obvious which the others have pointed out (the bicep slicer, omaplata and triangle, if your post arm slips) there are a few other things to consider.

1) When your releasing your post arm on his thigh to go to the "shot gun" grip on his leg you are giving your opponent a window of opportunity to recover his position to be able to go back to the above mentioned attacks. The tighter your transition the increase in your percentage of success. Also the "shotgun" grip is powerful, but make sure you don't "dangle" your hand on the outside of his leg, your elbow and armpit hanging over are fine, there is a quick omaplata/kimura variation that'll ruin your day if you don't. I don't see it as a threat from this particular transition. Its just a good habit to get into as its pretty easy to hit from you basic knee bar positions.

2) My personal experience with knee bars is to attack the leg where its at. Movement begets more movement, the greater the distance you travel to the leg, or the more you move his leg/hips, the greater the opportunity for them to escape. You'll have to be very careful once your partners catch on to the roll up escape i.e. they roll up on top due to momentum you created by pulling their leg across their body allowing them top obtain top position, crossfacing, sprawling out then circling to side control.

3) Watch your left foot, its a hail mary but you are leaving it open for a toe hold, if they can secure it before you finish your transition, your going to find yourself in a scramble rather than catching them in the kneebar.

The great thing about leglocks is the surprise factor and that most non-elite competitors have a very limited knowledge and understanding of the positions and transitions for successful legs attacks and counters. Unless your opponents train them on the regular you'll have a distinct advantage when attacking the legs. So even with all the critiques of this particular transition I'd say move forward with it, clean it up, have your training partners start attempting to counter it, show them how your setting it up, and let them know what their potential counters can be. The better their defense the tighter your offense will have to become, which will then open doors to other attacking combinations.

Chris Herzog
01-30-2011, 09:01 AM
I also support what Jonathan said. My personal first choice would be the inverted heel hook. Once you've defened the armbar and started to pass, and your opponents right leg has been transfered to your far side(your right side in this case), the oppertunity for the inverted heel hook is there.