Dead Orchard Escape + Where Did I Screw Up?

So, I slapped on a Dead Orchard at a comp this past weekend - setting it up exactly how the man himself, Nate Orchard, taught me to (edit: Just saw the video and nope. Definitely NOT a good set up by any stretch of the imagination :p )

"YES!!"

Everything seemed to be going perfectly. After all, no one in training had escaped a fully locked-in Dead Orchard before.

"Just pull the arm, and you've got it."

Up till this point, my opponent's proven to be a lot physically stronger than me, so I go for broke, crank on that arm with all I have, throw my hips forward and see him flop to the ground. For sure, he's gonna tap.

N.O.P.E.

Next thing I know, one foot crosses in front of me. Then the other (I think? Can't really recall, was too tired to think straight). I keep yanking, but a few seconds later... those feet do their job, and he's out. I'm awarded the match, but my inability to finish leads to him (very deservingly) winning the tournament.

Unfortunately, I don't have a video of the match to study where I screwed up. All I have are hazy memories to grab at. But i really do wanna know though - how'd that happen and more importantly, how can I not screw this awesome move up in future?

Appreciate any advice from you DO pros out there! ;)

Edit: Heck yeah! Just found out that one of my mates actually recorded this match. Unsuccessful DO attempt at 5:00 (watching this video also made me realise how horrible my set up was. Urgh.... For some reason, it seemed perfect in my mind though, haha)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3Ms...ature=youtu.be

Not an expert on the DO but the position is very similar to a Triangle Choke. Crossing your ankles over the attackers torso allows you to pull their torso away from their legs and then eventually separate their legs.

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Originally Posted by Jeff Baldwin

Not an expert on the DO but the position is very similar to a Triangle Choke. Crossing your ankles over the attackers torso allows you to pull their torso away from their legs and then eventually separate their legs.

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Yeah which is unfortunately what happened (side note: the dude actually used the exact same move to escape a triangle attempt earlier in our match).

While I can (sort of) accept it happening with a triangle attempt, I'm kinda bummed that this escape seems to work with the DO - and am hoping 10p warriors will have advice on keep the position in these situations (the DO is SUCH an awesome position, seems a waste not to finish it).

I keep 1 hand on my ankle if necessary (over, not under), lie to the appropriate side, use my other arm to fend off his leg, and find the right moment to try finishing.

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Originally Posted by mountveggie

Yeah which is unfortunately what happened (side note: the dude actually used the exact same move to escape a triangle attempt earlier in our match).

While I can (sort of) accept it happening with a triangle attempt, I'm kinda bummed that this escape seems to work with the DO - and am hoping 10p warriors will have advice on keep the position in these situations (the DO is SUCH an awesome position, seems a waste not to finish it).

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To quote my first BRAZILIAN BJJ Instructor... "Don let im do dat."

Be cognizant that they could attempt to do that. Keep swimming your arms inside the incoming legs and fending them off. While, like stated above, holding on to your shin/ankle. Get on that arm and finish it between fending off his legs. Sometimes it's a race to get the sub before the opponent gets their legs in position.

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Originally Posted by Jerry Walker

I keep 1 hand on my ankle if necessary (over, not under), lie to the appropriate side, use my other arm to fend off his leg, and find the right moment to try finishing.

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Do you mean the ankle that's locked up? (i.e. From a regular rubber guard setup, the left ankle) I'm guessing you're doing this to "block" the opponent's incoming foot?

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Originally Posted by Jeff Baldwin

To quote my first BRAZILIAN BJJ Instructor... "Don let im do dat."

Be cognizant that they could attempt to do that. Keep swimming your arms inside the incoming legs and fending them off. While, like stated above, holding on to your shin/ankle. Get on that arm and finish it between fending off his legs. Sometimes it's a race to get the sub before the opponent gets their legs in position.

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Great advice, guess it's a matter of battling + finishing (and not just trying for the finish and hoping for the best). Thanks dude!

There are a bunch of problems that can come up with this position and you have to learn to trouble shoot them all. I never want to "sell out" at any point because its supposed to be a control position. Shortly after this position got its name (I had already been using it for about 6.5 years at that time) someone informed me when I posted a video about that game that it was "Ludicrous" that someone could escape the newly named dead orchard, so my in depth trouble shooting tips were pointless. Without seeing exactly what you did, I can comment in much detail, but I'm guessing you might not have been crunched in close to him enough while finishing or let go of too much control. You said you learned it from Nathan. Like in person? If so you probably were taught some specific trouble shooting, if not, most people are trying to just slap a two arm triangle on and they wonder what happened when it messes up. And yeah, that will still work allot of the time, especially if your not super weak.

Like I said above... I'm not an expert on the position. I've played with it a bit but my legs are thick and average in length which seems to limit the ease which I can perform the technique.

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

There are a bunch of problems that can come up with this position and you have to learn to trouble shoot them all. I never want to "sell out" at any point because its supposed to be a control position. Shortly after this position got its name (I had already been using it for about 6.5 years at that time) someone informed me when I posted a video about that game that it was "Ludicrous" that someone could escape the newly named dead orchard, so my in depth trouble shooting tips were pointless. Without seeing exactly what you did, I can comment in much detail, but I'm guessing you might not have been crunched in close to him enough while finishing or let go of too much control. You said you learned it from Nathan. Like in person? If so you probably were taught some specific trouble shooting, if not, most people are trying to just slap a two arm triangle on and they wonder what happened when it messes up. And yeah, that will still work allot of the time, especially if your not super weak.

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Out of curiosity what did you call it before it was named "Dead Orchard"?

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

There are a bunch of problems that can come up with this position and you have to learn to trouble shoot them all. I never want to "sell out" at any point because its supposed to be a control position. Shortly after this position got its name (I had already been using it for about 6.5 years at that time) someone informed me when I posted a video about that game that it was "Ludicrous" that someone could escape the newly named dead orchard, so my in depth trouble shooting tips were pointless. Without seeing exactly what you did, I can comment in much detail, but I'm guessing you might not have been crunched in close to him enough while finishing or let go of too much control. You said you learned it from Nathan. Like in person? If so you probably were taught some specific trouble shooting, if not, most people are trying to just slap a two arm triangle on and they wonder what happened when it messes up. And yeah, that will still work allot of the time, especially if your not super weak.

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Yeah you're spot on! I gave up control by pulling on the arm and attempting to finish it similar to a regular armbar (i.e. by stretching myself out, trying to flop my opponent on his back, while having my own back to the mat, instead of keeping him on his knees and just shooting my hips up - dude was really strong and I felt I had to go for broke).

I'm kinda guessing that's probably what allowed him to get his feet across my chest - but since I don't have a video of it to analyse myself, I can only guess that's the reason?

And yeah, Nate swung by Singapore for a seminar and it was WICKED!! (Seriously, it felt like I finally learnt how to do an ankle lock - after over 3 years of jits) Dude was nice enough to show me the set up to the DO (even though it wasn't part of the seminar), and had me realise how I'd been messing up the entry all this while :p

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Originally Posted by mountveggie

Yeah which is unfortunately what happened (side note: the dude actually used the exact same move to escape a triangle attempt earlier in our match).

While I can (sort of) accept it happening with a triangle attempt, I'm kinda bummed that this escape seems to work with the DO - and am hoping 10p warriors will have advice on keep the position in these situations (the DO is SUCH an awesome position, seems a waste not to finish it).

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Nothing is %100. I wish I could see the match so I could give some better advice but more reps should get you sorted out. But make sure you have the triangle locked in completely before you try to move on. (:

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

There are a bunch of problems that can come up with this position and you have to learn to trouble shoot them all. I never want to "sell out" at any point because its supposed to be a control position. Shortly after this position got its name (I had already been using it for about 6.5 years at that time) someone informed me when I posted a video about that game that it was "Ludicrous" that someone could escape the newly named dead orchard, so my in depth trouble shooting tips were pointless. Without seeing exactly what you did, I can comment in much detail, but I'm guessing you might not have been crunched in close to him enough while finishing or let go of too much control. You said you learned it from Nathan. Like in person? If so you probably were taught some specific trouble shooting, if not, most people are trying to just slap a two arm triangle on and they wonder what happened when it messes up. And yeah, that will still work allot of the time, especially if your not super weak.

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Brian what year did you start doing Jiu Jitsu?

Nate, I have a question.

Can you post a video doing it on a thicker guy where it's challenging for you to lock the position?

I'd like to see how you prep the position to easiest lock up the triangle.

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Originally Posted by Brent Smith

Out of curiosity what did you call it before it was named "Dead Orchard"?

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I called it the double arm triangle because that was what the official 10th planet video on 10th Planet watch at the time said. Yeah, not vary cool name but whatever, here is the vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwgaPyXd1rk

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Originally Posted by nathan orchard

Brian what year did you start doing Jiu Jitsu?

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2007. I was a huge 10th planet fan less than a month in and was working rubberguard pretty early on (or trying). I would stumble into it off of invisible collar originally, just because my legs were pretty long. Later on, I saw Sean Bollinger showing the move and that kind of stewed in my brain for a while and eventually probably helped in the manifestation of it more into my game. Also I really, really want to say I saw Denny do it a long time ago but cannot find any evidence of this and allot of things have been seen since, so I might be mistaken. This was the second sub (and thing in general other than basic movement) for me to try to work into my game after a standard triangle. I started hitting this before basic path and oma plata’s and gogo’s for sure.
I was not trying to bring you down Nathen, I know you have been training longer than that and probably been playing with this move forever also, I was just saying I have been doing it a long time. LONG TIME, but not as long as some of the 10p OG’s.

I have personally felt the wrath of Prof. Nathan's namesake submission from the man himself. I recall him saying in a previous post that only two dudes had ever escaped his dead orchard. Spoiler alert: I was not one of them.

Found the vid guys!! Apparently a teammate had recorded some of the matches, including this one.

And apparently that perfect DO set up I thought I had.... actually really, REALLY sucked. :p

Updating the first post to include the vid. Appreciate any and all advice guys, thanks again!

On a side note, anyone knows what I did wrong with the triangle-to-armbar attempt at 3:55?
(I was fully stretched out, but didn't have the leverage to hyper-extend the arm or cause the dude any trouble)

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

I called it the double arm triangle because that was what the official 10th planet video on 10th Planet watch at the time said. Yeah, not vary cool name but whatever, here is the vid.

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I think it's crazy that Elvis Sinosic got the DO in the ufc way before it got a name, but it didn't (really) catch on until Nathan named it.

10th Planet renames almost all moves. Why would the "Both arms in triangle" be any different?

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Originally Posted by Mojoplata

I think it's crazy that Elvis Sinosic got the DO in the ufc way before it got a name, but it didn't (really) catch on until Nathan named it.

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I didn't name it. Master Eddie Bravo did.

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Originally Posted by nathan orchard

I didn't name it. Master Eddie Bravo did.

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Sorry, I was unaware. My comment was more about how people just ignored that it happened. I along with many others were told that you're safe with 2 arms in a triangle, but there's been proof that you aren't since 2001.

The forum named it, Eddie ok'd it. Nathan was just catching too many of them in high level comp for it not to be. The first to catch everybody's radar was when he caught Dewitt. It was clear it was a deadzone. Deadzone + Nathan Orchard= dead orchard.

Mount, are you a vegetarian?

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

The forum named it, Eddie ok'd it. Nathan was just catching too many of them in high level comp for it not to be. The first to catch everybody's radar was when he caught Dewitt. It was clear it was a deadzone. Deadzone + Nathan Orchard= dead orchard.

Mount, are you a vegetarian?

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I love fruits, hate vegetables.

And eat lots of meat. :D

I'm no expert, but it looked like you didn't address his feet when he brought them into the mix. Could you have pummeled through like this? https://youtu.be/PTwOpEv7t1k?t=107

Crack head smashing straight to dead orchard. Love that shit!

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Originally Posted by gene k

I'm no expert, but it looked like you didn't address his feet when he brought them into the mix. Could you have pummeled through like this? https://youtu.be/PTwOpEv7t1k?t=107

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Pummel through + sit up -> AWESOME! Thanks for the vid, looks like the missing key.

On a side note, how did you link directly to that exact point in the vid? That's some high level YouTube witchcraft.

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Originally Posted by nathan orchard

Nothing is %100. I wish I could see the match so I could give some better advice but more reps should get you sorted out. But make sure you have the triangle locked in completely before you try to move on. (:

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The vid's finally up! (Thanks to a teammate who had recorded and posted our matches to Facebook recently).

Will appreciate any and all advice you have ;)
(the triangle was already locked in, but as some of the really helpful Niburu warriors have pointed out - I'd failed to address the feet + maintain control)

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Originally Posted by mountveggie

Pummel through + sit up -> AWESOME! Thanks for the vid, looks like the missing key.

On a side note, how did you link directly to that exact point in the vid? That's some high level YouTube witchcraft.

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No problem. It's very simple, on youtube you just right click on the video and select "Copy video URL at current time"

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Originally Posted by gene k

No problem. It's very simple, on youtube you just right click on the video and select "Copy video URL at current time"

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Ahh... after all these years of YouTube-ing.... it was right there all along.. :p

Thanks dude!