I'm not saying not know them at all but what if they were no where near the level of the rest of your game? I know it is common for older guys to not compete and make it to black. Starting from knees 99% of the time my take downs suck. I feel like I need to step up my training to make it to the next level but takedowns honestly scare me a bit. I had back surgery last year, will be 40 in a few months and I have to be able to go to work the next day. Thoughts?
No. You won't suck as long as your school works on them once in a while. But you don't need to be a master at them to be a black belt.
I sure hope its possible for my sake! Lol
Im kidding. Obviously they are super important and i think you've got to have a least a couple solid ones up your sleeve (does t have to be a double leg). But look at eddie. He admits his wrestling is not that great and he is a third degree black belt.
Just to be safe, have an all around game. Try and get good at trips to keep your back safe :)
Possible? I think it's very common.
Starting from the knees is a problem. In addition to keeping you from working takedowns, it also hinders your ability to learn competition style guard pulls. Pulling guard standing is a lot different and more difficult than sitting to your butt from the knees.
Honestly if you work seated guard, deep half, dog fight, etc you are learning how to finish single legs, which are takedowns. Once you get confident there, you can start adding set ups from the feet.
If you want to work on takedowns, make sure you drill or spar with someone with wrestling experience. There might be more of a learning curve at first, but you won't stand the same risk of injury like when you go with someone inexperienced that will behave unpredictably.
All good points. As GI Jiu Jitsu is not for everyone, Judo/Wrestling is just not my thing. Absolutely agree they are very important if you want to compete but only a small percentage of us do. Some say if you don't study self defense your missing out. Again, (hopefully no one comes at me with a knife), it's not my thing.
Great point. I didn't start feeling confident being on my feet until I started understanding this.Quote:
Originally Posted by NotReady
Nice to have legit Black Belts from other organizations posting regularly on the forum, by the way. Thanks for hanging around and sharing your knowledge with us!
Thanks for having me. This is probably the best natured jiu jitsu forum I have ever been on so I am really happy to be here.
I went to a wrestling club in high school where they taught the finishes first, and the set ups for take downs second. I thought that was a really interesting way to do things. Obviously you are more likely to try a move if you have confidence you can see it through to completion. And then wrestling in college I learned that getting in on the legs is the easy part, finishing those takedowns is where the real work begins.
I think the other thing wrestling does a lot but BJJ not as much is positional sparring. If you take two non-wrestlers have them start on the feet in a free for all, chances of injury are pretty high. If instead you teach a single finish and then a single leg defense, and then have people spar starting with a single leg chances for injury go down a lot. People have a clear goal and techniques to get there, so they are not using strength or speed to force something. That is where people get hurt.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that the Miyao's have sub par take downs and they're killer black belts.
Makes a ton of sense. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by NotReady
Only working them every once in awhile wont make you any better than "suck" level. They need constant diligent work like ever other skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
Does the 10th Planet curriculum/system not work on takedowns? I assumed that you guys did, given your MMA-oriented justification for no-gi, etc.. So I answered the OPs questions with the assumption that you guys do. Like, duh, of course they do. It's blowing my mind that it's not in the system.
Watch the available material available from Eddie Bravo. Takedowns aren't necessarily "part" of the system. But every moon definitely practices takedowns per their discretion and preference. Empire offers no gi judo and wrestling, for example. Not officially a 10th planet thing where you're going to see DVD's about it. And some instructors are more proficient than others as far as teaching take downs. So of course it's taught in 10th Planet schools even it it's not "official" mandatory 10th Planet curriculum. Make sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
Like I said, the Miyao's aren't good wrestlers. But they are still killer black belts.
I could be way off, but I think 10th Planet sees itself as Jiu Jitsu with an MMA focus with "Jiu Jitsu" meaning "the ground aspect". Someone going into MMA is encouraged to learn Jiu Jitsu for the ground, Wrestling for the stand-up grappling and Muay Thai or Boxing or whatever hybrid you want for the standup striking, with all 3 being considered separate arts. 10th Planet focusing on one 1 of the 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
We definitely all work on takedowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
As a side note, I think it's a bit of a misnomer to call what we do a "system" anyway. It's really more of the 10th Planet philosophy, if that makes sense.
In my mind a system represents a specific and prescribed way of doing things, whereas a philosophy is more of an encouragement to think in a certain way.
This is where I think people have completely missed what Eddie has been trying to preach all along. He's preaching offense from the clinch, and he is willing to absorb anything that follows that line of thinking. Just look at the Rubber Guard for instance. Lots of really good rubber guard players in our organization, but each does his own thing from he Rubber Guard philosophy.
I get to Rubber Guard and I'm looking to play for he Meathook. Nathan is going to the Dead Orchard, Barncat is going to the shoulder trap series. Eddie is looking for invisible collar. Etc... All are built off of the same thinking and strategy, however different the paths may turn out.
Awesome Brandon! Definitely a philosophy. Where other schools say, "don't do rubberguard, but do our techniques", the 10P mindset is "do rubberguard, do wrestling, do armdrags. In fact, do whatever works for you."
I think though, that specializing in 10P specific techniques give us a leg up on the competition, because we know our game and we're dissecting theirs, while they know their game but aren't giving reps to ours.
For 10P being MMA oriented, I think that comes from our guard play. The MMA oriented comes from Eddie wanting to see a more offensive game from JJ players when they've been put on their backs by superior wrestlers/strikers. He points out that JJ players often times have a distance based guard. This seems to be non-effective and counter-intuitive in situations where your opponent is a better striker (with good TD defense) or wrestler that keeps taking you down. A JJ player who runs into this situation is going to need to be able to win the match from his back. Eddie's strategy for this situation is our system's guard style. It's clinch based both to stay safe and keep the opponent on the mats where we hopefully have the advantage. Play a distance game against a striker with good TD defense and they will just keep backing off and making you stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
Because of this you will see most 10P guys don't have much of a takedown game even though it's been said we are an MMA oriented style.
It really is a pretty awesome forum, I have seen very few flame wars here. I joined a few days short of a year ago and not once has anybody had a dig at me being a Humaita guy. Unfortunately I don't think the same would happen if there was a Humaita forum and a white belt had their school listed as 10th Planet.Quote:
Originally Posted by NotReady
This is a great way of describing it, I never thought about it that way. I guess like most people outside of 10th Planet my exposure is seeing the material in the books/dvd's. Before I started lurking here, I though everyone played the same game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
Thinking of it as a philosophy is an excellent way of putting it, Brandon. Thank you.
To the original question: I still think that it'd be pretty hard to "suck at takedowns" and be a black belt. Compared to other black belts? Perhaps you can suck. But to the general population, no freaking way. But you wouldn't say that a top-player black belt "sucks at guard" just because their guard isn't up to par to other black belts.
Slick Rick wrote:
I think though, that specializing in 10P specific techniques give us a leg up on the competition, because we know our game and we're dissecting theirs, while they know their game but aren't giving reps to ours.
From my experience with my gym, ATT, and overall ATT schools, Liborio and the coaches welcome any and all effective jiu-jitsu. (ATT's history is as a Carlson Gracie offshoot and if you remember, Carlson did not get along too well with the Gracie's in style or philosophy. So there's no "this is real jiu-jitsu" thinking at ATT because Liborio heard that aimed at him and his instructor Carlson.) The problem with ATT (or east coast area) is lack of qualified 10th P folks to teach us, but there are those, like me, who certainly come here and are hungry for the next MTS episode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
I am super accessable, all anyone have to do is show up, I teach anyone willing to learn that isn't an asshole. I hold yearly training camps and other 10p seminars at my gym, not to mention the number of seminars I teach each year. Saying not enough qualified 10p instructors is an excuse for people not to put work in. I went out and made it happen. People arent happy unless shit is delivered to them. If you can't go to 10th Planet, bring it to you.
I get people that message me all the time asking me why i dont teach in Buffalo or Syracuse all the time. They are an hour away from Rochester, lazy bastids. I have students that drive 2 hrs each way to train multiple times per week. If you want it, really really want it, its accessable to everyone if you put in the effort.
Louis Ho did it, JM and Zach did it, I did it. No one brought 10p to our doors steps, we had to go out and get it.
Yes, I'm a white belt but at our school we started started standing from day one, of course once it hits the ground it's a whole different thing
I don't want it enough to risk my marriage, seeing I live 6 hours from Rochester, and would have to make a weekend of it, perhaps bring my wife and 2 kids, a two and three year old. That's 12 hours of driving, hotel money, gas, etc. I'm not that rich, so I can't take off work. What I am doing now, seriously studying the system, is all I can give. That's enough desire for a hobby. I bring the 10P system to me through here and to my school where I work on things with folks. But it's one thing to do that, and another to have an expert help you out. I could go the Hotbox route, but that would require a convo with my instructor, plus, as a brown belt, it takes longer to get 10 wins than a white or blue - as the tournaments I've been to this year have 1 match or maybe 2. That's another huge amount of tournament fees, gas, etc. to do a Hotbox, which doesn't answer the question of where? I have asked you about camps that you do and you kindly responded, that would be great and I look forward to it, but no, I don't want it enough for both the economic and social costs. Be well and peace, brother Zog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
We train takedowns one day a week during our grappling time. our fighters always win the takedown battles because we train them.
I think it would be great if Eddie put some takedowns in the warmup drills. You know single leg, double leg, high crotch, leg trip ect. Ect. Basic manuevers.
Hi Aiseop,Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
True about the lack of 10p qualified guys in your area.
My conversation with a friend about east and west coast:
Friend:
Basically I feel like u guys are on a higher level then the rest of the states-plus all the nasty schools are in cali 10thpjj hq, gracie acadamy in torrence, atos, etc.....I think jt torres said something similar when he moved to cali about getting used to the style there.
Me:
Oh shoot I didn't know that. But there are so many good guys on the east coast as well:renzo, Pablo, Marcelo, cyborg, Ryan hall, Lloyd Irvin's camp.
Looking at it now, there's a good amount of schools in southern Cali that have certified beasts. I would assume that's the same in the east. I know the schools I mention in the east are killers but the fact they are far away from eachother and not concentrated makes it seem as if there aren't many. In SoCal alone these camps are all within 100 miles of eachother. I get it now
Friend:
Yeah that sounds about right.
---
Conclusion:
Pretty much, the schools that are doing well have guys that regularly compete and travel to see what new stuff is out there. Schools that get complacent end up falling behind. Because, in the west and in SoCal in particular we have so many schools, technique is being pushed further and further. It's very cutting edge. I would say Southern California is the Silicon Valley of Jiu Jitsu because there's so much innovation and knowledge within a small radius. Students at every school these days can tap a shoulder of a friend from 10th Planet and get valuable information that isn't readily accessible in other areas of the country.
Since you are a practitioner and lover of jiu jitsu and 10th Planet and we are so open minded, we'd love to help you in your journey even if it's via 1's and 0's. The beauty of technology!!
Thanks, Slick :). Appreciate the note. I look forward to continuing this journey and getting together at Zog's in the future and with other Ronin's up here in the NYC and New England area.
You're very welcome. I have a friend at ATT Atlanta if you're ever out that way. He's really into the 10p stuff as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
Hell yeah Rick, thanks for the shoutout! ATT Atlanta is also my home base and a sick spot. Lots of 10P action here every day. I am absolutely obsessed with the system, and bring it HARD every day. George has brought so much to the table, he has created some rubber guard monsters. He was just showing us the Dead Orchard last week. Lots of truck stuff, lockdown and lockdown defense (to my dismay lol) He is always bragging to me about training with guys like you lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Rick
The head coach definitely encourages people to use whatever techniques they like best. A good coach knows that the more diversity on the mat, the better off everyone is as a whole. I occasionally train at the HQ in Coconut Creek and they are the same way. When I was doing electric chairs the black belts were cheering "Eddie Bravo!" at me and smiling. This among other things is what makes ATT one of the best in the biz.
Badass Taylor! George is my guy. He's always telling me about the wars he gets in and asks a lot of detailed questions about different techs. He loves jits as much as I do. I plan on getting there to ATL possibly this month so if you are there I'll see you there for sure. Definitely George has expressed how open-minded Jucao is about all the 10P tech, so I'm always super excited to give him the latest and greatest. Trust me, whenever someone puts me in the rubber guard at a non-10P school, they start to say, "Oh oh! Eddie Bravo!!".. I laugh it off and "stamp" the crap out of em though. LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorWolf
Cool man can't wait to meet you someday!
Rick
Hahaha. Funny. my name is E.drik Lopez and when I pull something from 10th P in class, i get a "Eddie Lopez" shout! ahaha
I wrestle just to get my necktie game D'arce and anaconda game sharp.
Not only is it possible but I would say it's the norm. I'm not even excusing myself. My stand up should be much better at this point. It's pretty rare to see good stand up just because the rules don't make it important. Judo has more throws than groundwork because you start on the feet and it's easier to just win with a solid throw. Jiu Jitsu starts on the feet but you can't win from a throw so obviously everyone got really good at ground fighting.
That's all it is. To be a complete grappler then should be good at both. But realistically Judo guys don't have great ground fighting and most Jiu Jitsu guys don't have great stand up. It's just how it goes most of the time. Dave camarillo does a great job making sure that all of his students are really competent in Judo and wrestling. I'm sure there are some others but he really comes to mind.
Can I just say that if your games lacking in a spot don't you usually try to fix it. Not ignore the problem and hope it goes away. And on the journey to brown or black that realization of takedown importance should have come up at our school we train takedowns daily. Not 100% but drill and gets the steps. Each month we focus on a different style of takedown ie judo Bjj wrestling sambo... Being prepared for all is our philosophy especially defensively or you'll wake up as they raise the other guys hand