Two Technical Lockdown troubleshooting questions from Head and arm

Hey guys,

So I put quite a bit of time into the LD last year and I really made some big improvements and gave myself more options... but on the higher level guys at my gym I consistently ran into two scenarios and could not really come up with a good solution... both start situations start from head and arm...

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Situation 1
I have the LD and the top player has head and arm... I use my free hand to pimp arm and C cup his free leg as I always see done in the warmups and breakdowns... however as soon as I set up the frame the top player uses his arm to get a second underhook on my open elbow extended arm... passes his head to the same side and pass quite easily...

In this scenario... there is no chance for a Stomp, no Whipdown, no JOL... So my question is why do we extend our arm and leave an open space for him to get the underhook... and how can we counter or stop this pass from happenning?
(A small note... when Ralf showed me this he never put his hand to the knee... he always pimp armed to the hip which to me makes sense because then I don't give the top player a free underhook)

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Situation 2
I have the LD and the top player has head and arm... In this case I really like going to the Whipdown but again I pimp arm to the hip because I dont want to give up the second underhook... So I get a successful whipdown and typically I am posting to the armpit while keeping my elbow tight crunch my knees up and swing for the whipdown.. I suck my arm back inside and get my double underhooks...

So many times against higher level guys they will overhook the arm that was posting into their armpit and base their weight to the Whipdown side... So I cant get under the leg...so no electric chair.. and I also can't go back to Whip up because of his Overhook and his weight based to the otherside... So usually I will kind of get stalled out here and eventually he will wiggle out of my control and create a scramble.

So when I am doing the Whipdown and the they overhook my arm.. is there anything I can do from here?


Sorry for the long post... I hope I was clear enough in explaining the two scenarios

Any suggestions would be really helpful

Thanks guys

Happy Chinese New Year :D

If its not clear I can make a video in the next couple days and post it to YT

Also very interested in this since the same shiz is happening to me (scenario 2)

The pimp arm thing, I remember my instructor telling me to keep my elbow stabled to my side when using it otherwise I'll run into what you run into.

I really hate being stalled out in the LD

I am not a fan of playing lockdown while in head and arm control. It has been my experience that fighting in that position whether things go well or not, you are going to be breathing heavily. I am a big proponent of using Demian Maia's straight line theory to retain guard. I am a fan of using lockdown, but only after I have at least my strong side underhook.

Hopefully someone advanced will chime in.

Are you saying your arm on the same side as your lockdown is trapped in the head and arm, and that your free arm is on the same side as your opponent’s free leg?

I’ve never put my free hand on the knee, esp if I didn’t have double underhooks. Usually my free hand is working a JOL or something to break the head and arm and get double unders. If I touched that free leg, I was always underhooking the knee for an electric chair after I had double unders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

I am not a fan of playing lockdown while in head and arm control. It has been my experience that fighting in that position whether things go well or not, you are going to be breathing heavily. I am a big proponent of using Demian Maia's straight line theory to retain guard. I am a fan of using lockdown, but only after I have at least my strong side underhook.

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Yes, if that head and arm is tight, it’s a stalemate with a lockdown. They can’t pass but you can’t move either.

@Vish - To me, you have to keep the free arm and elbow tight or your giving them the double under pass... but I must be missing something because whenever I see Eddie demoing LD from Head and Arm he always extends his arm and C cups the far knee...

You don't need to get stalled out though... remember you can always do Stomps, or Whipdowns, and if your flexible you can get a free NJ straight from LD

@Jon - Well yeah in that case you can also come up into him with Dog Fight as well.... I also like to use the John Wayne sweep together with the LD to make them base out and confuse them... Im not familiar with the straight line theory... whats the basic idea?

@Daniel - Yeah thats the scenario man, because if the have the head and arm on the other side its easy for you to sneak out and take the back... I've played this position lots and had a lot of good success with it... Try to work the Whipdown series if you get stuck here... check out Eddie's second match with Royler... He uses the Whipdown to get the underhook repeatedly

Thanks guys

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyler_Casselman

@Vish - To me, you have to keep the free arm and elbow tight or your giving them the double under pass... but I must be missing something because whenever I see Eddie demoing LD from Head and Arm he always extends his arm and C cups the far knee...

You don't need to get stalled out though... remember you can always do Stomps, or Whipdowns, and if your flexible you can get a free NJ straight from LD

@Jon - Well yeah in that case you can also come up into him with Dog Fight as well.... I also like to use the John Wayne sweep together with the LD to make them base out and confuse them... Im not familiar with the straight line theory... whats the basic idea?

@Daniel - Yeah thats the scenario man, because if the have the head and arm on the other side its easy for you to sneak out and take the back... I've played this position lots and had a lot of good success with it... Try to work the Whipdown series if you get stuck here... check out Eddie's second match with Royler... He uses the Whipdown to get the underhook repeatedly

Thanks guys

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I was watching MTS 71 and I see what you mean about cupping the knee. Eddie’s elbow is in pretty tight though. I sometimes Whipup then WhipDown to get the underhook. The Reverse Lockdown with a Heismann sometimes works for me too. But I find myself using all the Lockdown movement to get myself to Pyramid, Homie Control, or straight to Rubber Guard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel Siriphongs

Yes, if that head and arm is tight, it’s a stalemate with a lockdown. They can’t pass but you can’t move either.

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It is actually very possible to pass especially if you are decent at unhooking the lockdown with your feet. Movement is also not impossible on the bottom. Eddie made it work the second time against Royler with the whip down, but when I watch the match over, it looked to me the only time Eddie was struggling against the grain was when he lost the underhook in quarter guard and fought like hell to regain the underhook after he mini stomped to lockdown. Everything else was like butter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyler_Casselman

@Vish - To me, you have to keep the free arm and elbow tight or your giving them the double under pass... but I must be missing something because whenever I see Eddie demoing LD from Head and Arm he always extends his arm and C cups the far knee...

You don't need to get stalled out though... remember you can always do Stomps, or Whipdowns, and if your flexible you can get a free NJ straight from LD

@Jon - Well yeah in that case you can also come up into him with Dog Fight as well.... I also like to use the John Wayne sweep together with the LD to make them base out and confuse them... Im not familiar with the straight line theory... whats the basic idea?


@Daniel - Yeah thats the scenario man, because if the have the head and arm on the other side its easy for you to sneak out and take the back... I've played this position lots and had a lot of good success with it... Try to work the Whipdown series if you get stuck here... check out Eddie's second match with Royler... He uses the Whipdown to get the underhook repeatedly

Thanks guys

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It is quite simple, but here this clip gives you the basics. Also BJJScout has a video on the bicep ride and straight line theory applies to why it is such a strong defensive guard position. I usually think about the bicep ride as both my launching point for my guard transitions and home base for when a passer becomes aggressive gi or no gi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRgoNsqKunI

Hey guys,

So I was out at the gym today and I managed to make a short video going over the troubleshooting issues with Whipdown and Pimp Arm... as well as showing some of the things I have been using from Whipdown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJrDrShAIcc

I know Sean has a video out there on using the 5-0 Sweep from Whipdown... but me personally I couldnt really get it to work well... especially if they have a heavy overhook and if there upper body is wide and thick.

Thanks

Also please dont post or share the video anywhere... its set to private... just for discussion and troubleshooting purposes

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

It is actually very possible to pass especially if you are decent at unhooking the lockdown with your feet. Movement is also not impossible on the bottom. Eddie made it work the second time against Royler with the whip down, but when I watch the match over, it looked to me the only time Eddie was struggling against the grain was when he lost the underhook in quarter guard and fought like hell to regain the underhook after he mini stomped to lockdown. Everything else was like butter.

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I guess I am misunderstanding what the OP is saying. When I said it is a stalemate, I meant when someone has head and arm control and is squeezing the hell out of you. I’ve found that I have to extend the lockdown to get some pressure off my neck and wait until they lighten up the pressure and start to move before I can start whipping effectively. I can kind of flounder there like a fish, lol...but usually it just tires me out until they lighten up.

If there is a solution to breaking the squeeze, I would love to know what it is, because the squeeze is what a lot of the big guys do when I roll with them. I can’t get a jaws of life going when they are so strong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyler_Casselman

Hey guys,

So I was out at the gym today and I managed to make a short video going over the troubleshooting issues with Whipdown and Pimp Arm... as well as showing some of the things I have been using from Whipdown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJrDrShAIcc

I know Sean has a video out there on using the 5-0 Sweep from Whipdown... but me personally I couldnt really get it to work well... especially if they have a heavy overhook and if there upper body is wide and thick.

Thanks

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Nice video. The double stiff arm is called the Heissman, I believe. Eddie talks about it with the Reverse Lockdown in MTS 56. That heel hook you do is there too, I think. Seriously, watch MTS 56, lol.

And the c-cupping of the leg is a pimp arm. I think your solutions are working nicely. Training with same partners day in and out leads them to knowing your game. I find that they know how to counter my game and I counter theirs. It’s always an arms race...that is sometimes discouraging because you don’t know if you are improving until someone new comes in, lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel Siriphongs

Nice video. The double stiff arm is called the Heissman, I believe. And the c-cupping of the leg is a pimp arm. I think your solutions are working nicely. Training with same partners day in and out leads them to knowing your game. I find that they know how to counter my game and I counter theirs. It’s always an arms race...that is sometimes discouraging because you don’t know if you are improving until someone new comes in, lol.

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In MTS 71, Eddie talks about how the pimp arm kept Royler from no-hand passing. I do notice that he is on his side a little more rather than flat on his back, which I was always told is the most effective way to play Lockdown. It also seemed to allow him the space to go to Jersey or full guard. Not sure if that helps...y’all know more than I do for sure.

Yeah, that heel hook is in MTS 56 at 01:48:00

@Daniel
Hey man,
To your first question about when they are squeezing really hard... for me using the Pimp Arm to the hip and then going up and pushing on the Arm pit to get to the Whipdown works pretty well... And honestly I try to avoid being flat on my back... Usually when I play LD I go straight to Whipdown IMMEDIATELY and dont give them a chance to flatten me out and get really heavy on top.

I will check out MTS 56... thanks for the tip

Yeah I remember when Eddie did that breakdown with Joe and he Talked about that... although Royler did not try to get the Double Unders from the Top... which some people say is safer and easier for the top guy to use to pass.

Hopefully a higher belt can chime in if they have any further insite into the Pimp arm C cupping the Knee and not the hip and then on the WHipdown as well

Thanks man

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel Siriphongs

I guess I am misunderstanding what the OP is saying. When I said it is a stalemate, I meant when someone has head and arm control and is squeezing the hell out of you. I’ve found that I have to extend the lockdown to get some pressure off my neck and wait until they lighten up the pressure and start to move before I can start whipping effectively. I can kind of flounder there like a fish, lol...but usually it just tires me out until they lighten up.

If there is a solution to breaking the squeeze, I would love to know what it is, because the squeeze is what a lot of the big guys do when I roll with them. I can’t get a jaws of life going when they are so strong.

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If you are in lockdown and the guy is squeezing head and arm really tight this for one thing seems like a noob reaction from the guy on top and two if you are extending your lockdown it seems like prime time for setting up the stomp, new stomp and the super stomp. Granted, if you are not good at it, you are probably going to get passed a lot starting out, but it will eventually be worth it once you get it down and get your options from butterfly guard leveled up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyler_Casselman

Hey guys,

So I was out at the gym today and I managed to make a short video going over the troubleshooting issues with Whipdown and Pimp Arm... as well as showing some of the things I have been using from Whipdown.



I know Sean has a video out there on using the 5-0 Sweep from Whipdown... but me personally I couldnt really get it to work well... especially if they have a heavy overhook and if there upper body is wide and thick.

Thanks

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Question 1

I think if you are going to C cup you need to trap your opponents arm with your head at least somewhat and anticipate the switch to double underhooks.

Question 2

If you are always underhooking like this, the whizzer is going to be less of an issue everywhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03vjmzm2oNo

Question 2 continued

Provided it is legal, reaping the knee and locking it up with a sambo knot is always high on my priority list. I am not as big a fan of just entering into the reap and cranking the heel hook because advanced guys usually can turn out of it. The apollo choke is definitely a strong finishing option also, but I would be more inclined to use it to stomp and sweep. The 5 0 sweep was tough to make work for me also until I got good at rocking my lockdown legs while adjusting the positional advancement.


Having said all of this, I personally much prefer countering head and arm with the stomp, new stomp, and super stomp while trapping the arm around my neck with my head and neck by pinning my head to the floor with a slight bridge. I find it is usually less strenuous on my body playing this counter. Also the closer you can keep your elbow to the rest of your body while you are pimp arming will greatly reduce the possibility of dealing with double underhooks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

If you are in lockdown and the guy is squeezing head and arm really tight this for one thing seems like a noob reaction from the guy on top and two if you are extending your lockdown it seems like prime time for setting up the stomp, new stomp, and the super stomp. Granted, if you are not good at it, you are probably going to get passed a lot starting out, but it will eventually be worth it once you get it down and get your options from butterfly guard leveled up.

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Yes, it’s usually the newer guys that squeeze me lol. My stomp game is still weak. Gotta work on it. Thanks!

Tyler,

The pimp arm is absolutely essential in the battle of the knee/single leg mermaid. It prevents your opponent from passing. Put the super stomp in first before the pimp arm if you are getting double under hooked/the dominator. The dominator is HUGE, that’s why it’s in the warm ups, G2. If your opponent opens his head and arm clinch to fight for double underhooks then that should make the transition to cocoon easier, and that’s the goal in the battle of the knee.

The second problem is solved by diving into the reverse lockdown game. That heel hook and arm triangle and dipset into dogfight are all part of the reverse lockdown game, there’s an entire mts episode on it, it’s the One shot In Birmingham Uk.

Great questions :)