http://www.bjjee.com/videos/watch-bj...o-purple-belt/
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I wonder if anyone actually ever promoted him to brown. Just out of curiosity (since I haven't trained long enough to know), if someone was a legit brown and they started training only once a week would their skills noticeably diminish? Seems like they would not that it would just limit progression.
Any skill that isn't constantly honed will diminish with time, Jiu Jitsu encompasses far too much material to keep old material polished, learn and become proficient in current material, and develop and research new skills and material.
Does that make it ethically sound to demote a student? I've never heard a story like this before, though I've heard it's not uncommon for an instructor to keep a guy at brown belt for 8, maybe 10 years, or perhaps not even promote him at any point. That would seem like a more appropriate course of action than a demotion. If the guy doesn't have a verifiable lineage, then a fake is a fake. But again, there's an ethical dilemma to be considered if guys can get demoted merely due to diminishing skill.
I wasn't speaking about this particular situation, and no I don't think it your situation warrants a demotion. However, if I gave a student specifics to work on before getting promoted, they left and were promoted by someone at a different school, and they came back and those skills still hadn't been improved I wouldn't accept that promotion in my school, and he/she would come back at the same belt that left with. Especially if I suspect the only reason they left is because I hadn't promoted them yet.
That's fair. I've personally witnessed an example of a guy training at two schools get a second stripe on his blue belt at one school, go to a different school and get promoted to a 4-stripe blue belt (all within about a month of each other) and then he comes back to see the original instructors pissed about it, with good reason imo. It's not like the guy wasn't legit in his technique. That wasn't it at all. But it showed a lack of loyalty and the priority this guy really has in his training. In your hypothetical case that you presented about leaving due to not getting promoted, it would show a lack of consideration for the intrinsic factors, and too much emphasis on the extrinsic factors (e.g. belt color) that one should hope to attain from training jiu jitsu in general. Not to mention that it would be really lame if someone left just because they weren't getting promoted fast enough. But it'd say a lot about their character, and it would seem to me fairly generous of you to allow him back to your school PERIOD, let alone with his old rank. I've moved to a new school recently but made it clear from day one that I'm loyal to my guys in Chicago. It may take much longer to move up in rank this way, since I'll only see them on holidays or a sporadic weekend, but it means more to me to align with their vision of what a black belt should be, which obviously includes the universal technical and physical requirements that'll more or less come with mat time no matter where I train, but just as importantly for me personally, the mental and spiritual development as well.
Interesting discussion.
Do y'all think it would be ok for a professor to give the student the option to be demoted?
I would rather that then wonder for a year or more why I wasn't getting any stripes on my "brown belt."
Better to be seen as what you are. At least have the option.
Maybe that's what happened here?
I don't think it was entirely necessary to video tape it and put it online. I completely understand demoting a student who doesn't truly deserve a brown belt, but it's kind of humiliating to have it broadcasted to the world.
I find it strange this doesnt happen more tbh.
I don't think the instructor is obligated to do anything, if the student wants to train with him, he'll do what the instructor says in regards to rank. Obviously the instructor doesn't agree with " what he is" hence the demotion. The instructor told him what he is, a purple belt.
I can wrap my mind around it a little more if a dude transfers schools and is wayyyy off base than he should be from the standards of the new professor. But there's gotta be a huge disconnect in communication if it were to happen within one school, as in the same professor promoting then later demoting the guy. Either way I don't think it's ethical, at least not without prior consult. Just as it isn't ethical to give a guy a promotion solely because he's met minimum attendance requirements, which some schools are known to do. It works both ways. A professor doesn't necessarily have to recognize a promotion from another professor, especially in the hypothetical case that Prof. Zog alluded to earlier. Or like Eddie recognizing a guy as a brown belt even if he walks into 10P for the first time as a legit black belt. That seems alright given how unique the 10p system is, but the physical act of taking a belt away and demoting the guy caught me by surprise.
I think this is fair.
I don't think it was necessary, but I appreciate that he did. I think it's a good discussion to have. If anything, i feel like it's more insulting to the previous school. It's like saying that their brown belts suck.
Is the link for the video still working?
I think it got deactivated/taken down before noon today (by the time I went to BJEE to load it it was gone).Quote:
Is the link for the video still working?
Ty. Yeah the feel I get is it was a message to the previous school. Rather mean and humiliating in my opinion to post it. I fear these broadcast punishment type videos might become the start of a trend that could turn prospective new jiu jitsu students off from ever starting jiu jitsu if they feel its a hostile environment.
Im ok with a contest to see who can keep it the realest, it'd be a nice break from "who can fake it the best".
I hear you, but I believe that there are plenty of new student friendly schools out there. For every Ralph Gracie school there's a "keep it playful" school. The way I see it, teachers are teachers. They're free to teach and rank how they please. And school owners are business owners. They're free to run their business how they please. I'm not really concerned about new students. I do think quality control is important though. So I have no problem with the video.
I mean, I agree, but I feel like a lot of these things are being done to advance someone's profile or get clicks rather than "keep it real." By all means, beat the crap out of the person, tell them what belt to wear, but this grandstanding is a bit much. That's just my opinion. I believe in getting the word out if there is some fraud instructor, but even then, plenty of people have been "exposed" and keep on doing what they do. To me, telling your boy to videotape you yelling at or scolding someone seems less than real and more reality TV.
PErsonally I'm not sure what would be worse, having the breakup with a girlfriend (or a rejection) being broadcast or this.....I can't understand the words but I guess most of us can make out the gist based on tone and the action itself.Quote:
Rather mean and humiliating in my opinion to post it. I fear these broadcast punishment type videos might become the start of a trend that could turn prospective new jiu jitsu students off from ever starting jiu jitsu if they feel its a hostile environment.
Couldn't understand every single word but here's a basic summary of what was said:
They start by stating that at their academy, you have to deserve a belt to be allowed to wear it.
Then, they give a bit of background to explain what they're about to do.
The guy they're demoting used to train at their academy as a blue belt. He was a very tough blue belt giving trouble to many guys there. They promoted him to purple but then, he left just after that, went to what they say were shady academies where you can pay to get promoted faster, and came back with a brown belt.
But after training with him again, they're of the opinion that he is not on a brown belt level yet, which is why they've decided to demote him to purple belt. It's their condition for him to keep training at their academy.
They then emphasize that he'll need to train a bit more to get to brown but that he'll now be a tough purple belt.
After that, they explain that the guy in question agreed on the demotion and that he's aware he's not on a brown belt level. While removing his brown belt and putting the purple belt on him, they repeat that his purple belt is well deserved, as he's a tough purple now, and that he'll need to train a bit more to get to brown.
At the end, they state that they wanted to make an example of what they consider an ugly practice and that people shouldn't try to jump steps to get promoted faster.
See I can understand it now. He got promoted to purple by his team then went off and got a brown from a less than legit source. Loyalty issues aside, his old team doesn't have to recognize it if they don't feel it's warranted from a technical standpoint. And at least he was on board with going down a rank and they consulted together. There's some discord on this thread about whether or not this video should have been made, but what it does is set an important precedent in regards to issues of this nature. For sure what it does is send a message to the school that promoted him to brown. Kind of a slap in the face, if you ask me. Obviously it's a case by case, and for all we know there have probably been cases out there where guys have transferred to legit schools and received a promotion and returned w/o it being an issue. Since we haven't seen it videotaped, no one hears about it. To my understanding, this specific case is precisely what Zog alluded to earlier about having a student jump ship and returning with a promotion, only to still not meet the criteria that he originally said that his student needed to meet to get that promotion in the first place. Makes sense now.
Shouldn't have video'd it, using the student to go after another academy IMO
Belts in BJJ are subjective anyway, someone's "tough purple" is another places Brown, or you roll up to the Mendes Bros academy and he might get smoked by blue belts, that's bjj
But whatever, as Kimbo Slice said "it is what it is"
Demotions are fine to me, if you want to train with an instructor, it's there house, there rules, just no need to make an example of him online IMOIt's crazy huh they've infiltrated us!, he is your student now, that's all that matters
I have never been into set criteria for BJJ, but my point kind earlier is its very subjective of course, I can't watch the vid, but it sounds like the instructor said he is a "tough purple", depending on instructors or whoever, there isn't much difference between a "tough purple" and a new Brown, so was this really needed to be filmed and put out there?
Seems like an overreaction to just take a shot at another school at the expense of a student that is yours now
I feel you Rob. What you say makes sense. I just see the other facet of this.
If I were an instructor, if one of the students that I built up to purple leaves and comes back as a brown, but his skills aren't up to par with the new browns in my school? I'd demote him too.
It's kind of like building a house. Say I start on a house and build it to like 75% completion. For whatever reason, the home owner requests a different contractor to finish. The new contractors build it up to 85%. The homeowner then asks me to come back and finish. But the extra 10% that the other contractors added on sucks and it's not built up to my standard. This is my name ultimately going on the 100% complete house. No one cares about the 10% of work that another contractor did. So I would tear away anything that the other contractors put up and build it the way I know I can build it. Does that make sense?
As far as filming it and putting it out there; I feel like it's not a bad thing if this instructor feels very connected to BJJ as a worldwide culture and not just a local scene. He's provoking a discussion. He's calling out a problem that he sees in BJJ which is quick attendance based promotions and not skill based promotions. I think it's a good discussion to have.
In theory, if Rafa did the same thing, and called out Ryron for it, I don't think too many would have a problem with it. Most likely because we respect Rafa's opinion on what a good brown belt should be. But because this guy is a "no name," people are more doubtful of his intentions. And I get it. But I also respect his stance and his actions.
In theory it sounds good. At least for blue. But in the long run I think it would hinder creativity. And even if we did have certain criteria, that still wouldn't guarantee equal quality. Using my building analogy, not all builders are created equal. Even if they're building the same exact house, one guy is always going to have a higher standard than the next.
I don't have a problem with demotions, if you go and train at a new school, you should accept whatever rank the instructor says you are, nothing wrong with that
I'm just commenting on recording it and putting it online, there really wasn't any benefit of that, especially for his new student
Oh it wasn't for a new student though. It was for a student he built up to purple and came back a weak brown. I benefited from it. And I'm sure his student is eager to get back to brown, so his student will benefit too.