Catching both legs with guard: random catch? Or something to build up?

Sorry I didn't see anything from this position before so I must have been assuming there isn't much game from here. Please correct me if I am wrong, but is it easy to fend off attacks from this position? I feel like basic posture and hand fighting until they open up feels like it would shut it down. I never said it wouldn't work, I just purposed how I would go about defending it and I feel like to pull it off requires your opponent going into it (like you mentioned a specific counter that doesn't come around often in 1 possible scenario.) I feel like if I could keep myself composed in the guard they would have to move if I were winning the posture/grip battle.

Please correct this if it is wrong but these are my worries with this maneuver:

-Basic guard maintenance would shut down all options (Posture, not allowing wrist control, etc.)
-If I am on the defensive, I wouldn't have to really worry until you would have to open up to transition (assuming I could win the grip battle and maintain posture.)
-Harder for the bottom person to breakdown someone with legs being tied up so low.

I have never seen anything from this position, so don't beat me down too bad explaining it to me if these are stupid ^ :)

Might just be overthinking this, but doesn't doing the proper positioning and hand fighting in guard stop nearly everything from guard? So that is not a good way to articulate my concern... I guess I mean are these concerns HARDER to deal with when your legs are tied up low on their legs? :) Thank you and sorry for the confusion

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Sorry I didn't see anything from this position before so I must have been assuming there isn't much game from here. Please correct me if I am wrong, but is it easy to fend off attacks from this position? I feel like basic posture and hand fighting until they open up feels like it would shut it down. I never said it wouldn't work, I just purposed how I would go about defending it and I feel like to pull it off requires your opponent going into it (like you mentioned a specific counter that doesn't come around often in 1 possible scenario.) I feel like if I could keep myself composed in the guard they would have to move if I were winning the posture/grip battle.

Please correct this if it is wrong but these are my worries with this maneuver:

-Basic guard maintenance would shut down all options (Posture, not allowing wrist control, etc.)
-If I am on the defensive, I wouldn't have to really worry until you would have to open up to transition (assuming I could win the grip battle and maintain posture.)
-Harder for the bottom person to breakdown someone with legs being tied up so low.

I have never seen anything from this position, so don't beat me down too bad explaining it to me if these are stupid ^ :)

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How long a guy holds out depends on his base.

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

How long a guy holds out depends on his base.

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Interesting. Is it easier to maintain defense when someone is around your legs instead of body if you are not standing? I wouldn't want to be standing if my legs were together in the first place. The only reason I care is if I am using this position and hitting an arm drag or an arm triangle, that means I beat my opponent in the arm fighting that could have taken place in a different variation of guard in which I had my legs to help me (such as an extended lock down, high guard, etc.) I essentially could hit that move if I was in just about any guard variation I want. If the specific sweeps/techniques from this position is a rare occurrence, it is good to know, but not really good to practice as a go-to position/maneuver IMO. This is due to the fact that the most available options (back takes, arm drags, etc.) are available in more versatile variants of guard such as butterfly guard, half guard, open guard, closed guard, etc. I feel like to be a strong maneuver it has to have features that give you good control and/or options. If it is taking away from my control or leverage when I am arm fighting and gives me only a couple low percentage options, I would rather spend my time practicing some Gogo clinches or something that will come up more often and work more often :)

I am interested in exploring this position a little my own rather than just make assumptions that go untested. I have had my legs tied up before and thought nothing of it, just never seen anything that works from it. I can picture the hip scooping sweep getting under them, however I might just not be aware of the control someone with some good experience in this would do any different. I never said it was a bad idea, I just feel it needs more substance to be something I would be comfortable practicing to add in my game unless I am still unaware of the options. Please let me know more if you have more info :)

Please don't try to vouch for it by saying black belts do it and they crush people not at their level... They are legit blackbelts, they could toy with you with anything they choose.
I knew a teacher that told me one time that, "You know, Royce Gracie doesn't like the electric chair because all you have to do is head scoop to stop it," (Someone tell Royler :O)
and I said, "To be fair, I could do exactly what Royce wants me to do and he could do something from Youtube for the first time he has ever tried it and still crush me I bet."
He responded with "Yeah, they sometimes have bad arguments."

Can anyone post any videos if they see this in a high level roll or comp? I feel like the position itself is relatively weak compared to other forms of guard in terms of options that are only available in that type of guard without transitioning to a new position. If the sweep turns out to be fairly easy or I just haven't noticed how often people put their legs together, then I am all for it :)
I am just making sure I got the most from people who have dealt with this position more so I am picking your brains lol. I feel like every option has a place and time, however you are better off putting your time in practicing something that is higher percentage and less situational like a double leg than something that requires a specific set up like a Steven Seagull wrist lock. (Not saying this is a Seagull move lol)

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Sorry I didn't see anything from this position before so I must have been assuming there isn't much game from here. Please correct me if I am wrong, but is it easy to fend off attacks from this position? I feel like basic posture and hand fighting until they open up feels like it would shut it down. I never said it wouldn't work, I just purposed how I would go about defending it and I feel like to pull it off requires your opponent going into it (like you mentioned a specific counter that doesn't come around often in 1 possible scenario.) I feel like if I could keep myself composed in the guard they would have to move if I were winning the posture/grip battle.

Please correct this if it is wrong but these are my worries with this maneuver:

-Basic guard maintenance would shut down all options (Posture, not allowing wrist control, etc.)
-If I am on the defensive, I wouldn't have to really worry until you would have to open up to transition (assuming I could win the grip battle and maintain posture.)
-Harder for the bottom person to breakdown someone with legs being tied up so low.

I have never seen anything from this position, so don't beat me down too bad explaining it to me if these are stupid ^ :)

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Hey man. No, I think you're following perfectly. I think if you could feel it (from top or bottom) you would see that the thing that makes this position difficult for the top guy is that I have time. If I've tied your feet together, your mobility is *greatly* compromised. Can't go forward. Can't go back. Can't go to the sides. You can sit down and grip fight, but if I've got the double lockdown, you can't even sit down anymore. I can actually *whip.* You've got to think about your hands and your feet at the same time because I'm trying to get control of both for long enough to get you going in *any direction.* Once you're going, you won't be able to stop effectively.

I can also arm drag. You can't counter-arm drag because you can't step. If your arms are on the mat, I'm trying to take your back.

I don't want to be anything other than humble here: I have failed to get the arm drag from "double half" on high level belts because they have magic and skills. I mess it up on white belts maybe 30% of the time because it's new. There's a lot about the position I don't understand yet. Hence the conversation: is anyone else playing with this? You understand.

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Might just be overthinking this, but doesn't doing the proper positioning and hand fighting in guard stop nearly everything from guard? So that is not a good way to articulate my concern... I guess I mean are these concerns HARDER to deal with when your legs are tied up low on their legs? :) Thank you and sorry for the confusion

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You make a good point. And here, I think grip fighting is your only way to survive for long enough to get your legs separated. You have less tools. Against a skilled player, my calculation is that you're one misstep, one underhook, one whip, one push away from getting your back taken or getting swept.

It should also be said that one of the things that got me thinking about this more (I wasn't sure, but I've reviewed the video and now I remember) is that I saw Garry Tonon do something similar. Months ago, that gave me confidence that I was on to something, so I started looking for it more.

https://youtu.be/Ko5481Tyc58?t=2m41s

You'll see him score a takedown from a "stage 1 double half guard" with the guy standing. Dude goes down like a tree. I do stuff like that a little, not so explosive because I don't want to wreck knees. I like to arm drag from there.

When I get it, the person is usually beginning to stand to pass my guard. My recollection is:

1) They are trying to post on my chest and slide legs side to side to flank me. That "apart, together, apart, together" movement let's me catch them at the "together" moment. Naturally, being caught out that way, they tend to drop their base to avoid being swept immediately. Then the game begins.

2) At the beginning of knee slice guard passes when their legs are close together.

The feedback I'm getting is that it isn't easy to fend off the attacks. One dude told me he felt like things were going from bad to worse and that there was nothing he could do about it.

That's a decent place to start. Heh.

The format makes this discussion difficult: I'm sorry this is so verbose. If you're bored, please forgive a white belt's ramblings. :)

Thank you so much for the wonderful response! :)

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Can anyone post any videos if they see this in a high level roll or comp? I feel like the position itself is relatively weak compared to other forms of guard in terms of options that are only available in that type of guard without transitioning to a new position. If the sweep turns out to be fairly easy or I just haven't noticed how often people put their legs together, then I am all for it :)

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Dude, that's super premature. I'm not evangelizing this thing. I blush to even think to say "I'm not evangelizing this thing yet." It's so premature that to add the yet makes it sound like I plan to evangelize it ever.

I'm a white belt. I have a white belt mind and understanding. I don't even ask the right questions sometimes and when I do, I don't always understand the answers.

But I do know to ask "Is anybody else doing this?" And I know that if nobody is, odds are good that it isn't that smart.

I'll play with this for a few years, earn a couple belts and if I'm still interested when I'm a purple or brown belt, if I've refined and demonstrated it, yeah, I'll post some comp footage and get into some arguments about it.

For now, I'm just a white belt asking some questions (and answering them).

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Thank you so much for the wonderful response! :)

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I hope it was helpful. It was definitely lengthy. :)

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Please don't try to vouch for it by saying black belts do it and they crush people not at their level... They are legit blackbelts, they could toy with you with anything they choose.
I knew a teacher that told me one time that, "You know, Royce Gracie doesn't like the electric chair because all you have to do is head scoop to stop it," (Someone tell Royler :O)
and I said, "To be fair, I could do exactly what Royce wants me to do and he could do something from Youtube for the first time he has ever tried it and still crush me I bet."
He responded with "Yeah, they sometimes have bad arguments."

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Respectfully, it's this type of attitude I've seen among certain people that make me question if they'll ever reach that level. Black belts aren't Gods. They have to obey certain principles no matter who they're training with. They can't disregard a guy just because he's a lower rank. I've caught black belts in moves before. Sweeps and submissions. I'm not gonna write a list of who or with what, but a vast majority of the time when it happens, it happens because I'm the first to act, I commit to it 100%, and I fight tooth and nail for what I want. They've been around longer, sure. They have great instincts, immaculate timing, and a deep understanding of the art. Without a doubt. But to say they could toy with you with anything they choose is basically admitting defeat and admitting that you don't know shit about the art. A lot of black belts get to where they are by having a bread and butter, essentially having moves that they can catch virtually anyone in. Not everyone is a Nathan Orchard or an Eddie Bravo that can cram 50 submissions down your throat in a matter of seconds. They're nevertheless solid overall, which is the reason they've gotten to that level of achievement in the first place. That's precisely what a black belt is. An achievement. It's not a guarantee that they'll catch anyone and everyone below their level, all day every day, with whatever they feel like. Nevertheless, you'll see time and again where a lower level guy doesn't put up much of a fight because he doesn't think he's worthy of competing on that level. That paradoxically is part of what puts him in that lower level, at least from a mental standpoint. In any case, earlier I was referring to Monteirro's ability to sweep everyone in his association with his guard game. The guy has over 30 black belts under him. I wouldn't call that "not at [his] level." You're basically saying a black belt that's never berimboloed before (or played x-guard, or rubber guard, it doesn't matter) could waste a lower belt with that type of game just because he's a black belt. It doesn't work like that. If I can obey the basic fundamental concepts of jiu jitsu that I've picked up from several high level guys along the way and I mean LIVE AND DIE by these concepts, keep them guessing, and make them work, then it becomes a good fight. There's no guarantees, and let's be real...safe money is probably on them. I may get tapped a vast majority of the time I roll with them, but without exception it's always beautiful to me because I can detect the precise moment where they believed in what they were doing a little bit more (or a lot more) than myself. It's that precise moment that you feel the years of experience come to fruition and the mental strength they have to catch something. You don't need a color around your waist to start thinking like that. I hear people say all the time "oh he's a black belt so he's supposed to tap me" or "I don't mind losing to them cuz they're a black belt". That's a load of crap. I don't mind losing to someone that puts me in a checkmate. I never think to myself "oh this guy is a black belt so I ought to lose." At the end of the day, if they're a legit black belt, then the mats won't lie.

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

Respectfully, it's this type of attitude I've seen among certain people that make me question if they'll ever reach that level....At the end of the day, if they're a legit black belt, then the mats won't lie.

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Might be stupid of me to step between two blue belts and play peacemaker, but, hey, I've never claimed to be smart. I'll give it a shot and then I'll step aside.

I make two observations:

1) Arman, it sounds like you took what he said personally. Am I misreading you? I'm not sure Carson meant it that way. This format (forums) is frustrating on all sides.

2) Carson, you point out, and rightly so, that black belt dudes can do things well and naturally that lower belt folks can't (not as well nor as naturally). But I've also observed that many, if not most, professors spend their sparring time with their students grooming them, pruning them, shaping them and, possibly, some time playing with things they wouldn't throw at their brown belt students (yet). But throwing weak, fake stuff at them because they can't defend it? That's like the BJJ version of trolling. I think almost anybody could get distracted by something like that and it could throw off their training.

Do you have any reason to believe that professor Monteiro was?

It's not personal, I know that. However, I often see that general way of thinking that black belts are this mystical figure to be all too common. It can be a mental block, and it needn't be. If the guy is truly a legit black belt, he should hold his own w/o question. I took his comment as a defeatist sorta way of thinking, not as a personal shot by any means. It's a way of thinking that more recently, I've made it a point to mentally overcome and not sell myself short in my conviction in playing my game. ForGET about their belt color and just play your game. I guess when I read it it struck a chord. Wasn't personal. I never take things personal, especially online. Even if they are.

In regards to your question, I know for a fact that Prof. Monteiro and any other black belt I roll with doesn't/shouldn't hand me things. I don't feel he does in the slightest. I was merely remarking about the general thought that a belt color makes you invincible, which is how I perceived his post. It doesn't.