EBI 10 - Questions

Congrats to Geo on an awesome night of matches. I definitely look forward to seeing him compete again. Awesome night of matches all around.

With that being said EBI 10 has left me with some questions on the OT rules if anyone can help me out.

1) How is it determined who gets to pick position first in OT? This is something I never understood during all EBI's, to me it was very confusing to see Eddie Cummings, go from an offensive position to a defensive one.

2) I understand that if you change position without attempting a submission, the round ends.. But I was also under the impression, that if you transferred to another submission attempt, you kept going. So why did this match end when it did? Geo was almost escaped and Eddie Cummings transfered to a leg lock attempt, but let go because the match was ended.. When does the "transferring to another position, as long as you have a submission attempt" rule end?

The guy on offense gets to pick

Eddie was attempting a leg entanglement, not a submission.

It's a coinflip on who gets to choose if he wants offense or defense first.

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Originally Posted by Craig Murray

The guy on offense gets to pick

Eddie was attempting a leg entanglement, not a submission.

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Most limb submission attempts involves some kind of entanglement, if he transfers to spiderweb, thats not instantly an armbar, it involves an arm entanglement.. With Eddie Cummings doing that leg entanglement, as deep as it was it probably would have led into a submission attempt at least.

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Originally Posted by JorgenBore

It's a coinflip on who gets to choose if he wants offense or defense first.

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Oh OK, thank you, that makes more sense now.

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Originally Posted by Keith D

Any submission attempt involves some kind of entanglement, if he transfers to spiderweb, thats not instantly an armbar, it involves an arm entanglement.. With Eddie Cummings doing that leg entanglement, as deep as it was it probably would have led into a submission attempt at least.

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Eddie lost Geo completely and then jumped on his legs. That's not a transition from one dead zone to another.

I guess saying "submission attempt" was incorrect on my part. You are required to stay in a dead zone or the OT round is over.

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Originally Posted by Keith D

Most limb submission attempts involves some kind of entanglement, if he transfers to spiderweb, thats not instantly an armbar, it involves an arm entanglement.. With Eddie Cummings doing that leg entanglement, as deep as it was it probably would have led into a submission attempt at least.

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It wasn't an entanglement that leads to an immediate submission threat, like ashi or knee knot.

I actually randomly thought about your point today, the idea that Cummings was transitioning to a leg submission (mind you, before I read this). I understand the argument. I know that the crucifix transition or spider web from the back would qualify as a continuation, who's to say with the level Cummings is at that game there couldn't be another commonly accepted transition added to the list? He's obviously dangerous from there, enough so to warrant most entanglements 'an immediate threat.' Certainly Geo's upper body was out, and the refs arms were waving the match off once it was. Cummings mighta had something, but losing the back control was such a momentum turner. Maybe an area to think about, I'm 80-20 that nothing changes.

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

I actually randomly thought about your point today, the idea that Cummings was transitioning to a leg submission (mind you, before I read this). I understand the argument. I know that the crucifix transition or spider web from the back would qualify as a continuation, who's to say with the level Cummings is at that game there couldn't be another commonly accepted transition added to the list? He's obviously dangerous from there, enough so to warrant most entanglements 'an immediate threat.' Certainly Geo's upper body was out, and the refs arms were waving the match off once it was. Cummings mighta had something, but losing the back control was such a momentum turner. Maybe an area to think about, I'm 80-20 that nothing changes.

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I couldn't agree more, I don't think there is a very clear standard for what constitutes the match continuing. Even as you say the crucifix, if you transfer from the back to the crucifix, the opponent is in no immediate threat either, yet the match will continue, so I guess I really don't understand the logic of the match ending because "he transferred to a leg entanglement that wasn't an immediate threat.", Eddie Cummings getting into that leg entanglement position, is more of a threat than most people getting into the crucifix. I might like to see escaping to a controlled position, implemented in the future.

http://i.imgur.com/jkOQ9bj.png

This is why Geo won, I don't see the confusion.

*Edit - this is immediately after Geo pulled his arm free and before Eddie entangled the legs.

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Originally Posted by Martin Harris

This is why Geo won, I don't see the confusion.

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Clearly that is not a deadzone. Thanks for posting the pic, hopefully it helps people understand the rule.

Noted. The tape don't lie. It does not preclude however the possibility of other dead zones existing within the confines of the rules. And I would counter the notion that the crucifix is not a dead zone. The guy on defense has no real options for offense, and he's a step away from an arm submission or choke.

The ref called it right

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

And I would counter the notion that the crucifix is not a dead zone. The guy on defense has no real options for offense, and he's a step away from an arm submission or choke.

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I don't understand ... crucifix is not a deadzone, but the guy on defense is 1 step away from tapping? You mean it IS a deadzone? I'm guessing if you transitioned from mount to crucifix the match would continue. Am I wrong about that?

Yes, I am of the notion that it is with no ambiguity a dead zone in the right hands. As is the kimura trap, truck, spiderweb, and back.

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

Yes, I am of the notion that it is with no ambiguity a dead zone in the right hands. As is the kimura trap, truck, spiderweb, and back.

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oh, i wasn't thinking clearly. If mount was an OT dead zone you could pick, perhaps you could transition to crucifix. But how can you transition to a crucifix from the back without leaving a deadzone? Is that possible? (forgive my whitebelt knowledge)

You start in a deadzone. If you stay in one, or transition from one to another, it's fine. If you attempt a submission but lose position with the submission attempt still going, you're fine. But as soon as you are both not in a dead zone, and not in an submission attempt, the game is over.

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Originally Posted by Martin Harris

http://i.imgur.com/jkOQ9bj.png

This is why Geo won, I don't see the confusion.

*Edit - this is immediately after Geo pulled his arm free and before Eddie entangled the legs.

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as I explained, it wasn't a position that leads to a submission. This is nothing.

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Originally Posted by Craig Murray

You start in a deadzone. If you stay in one, or transition from one to another, it's fine. If you attempt a submission but lose position with the submission attempt still going, you're fine. But as soon as you are both not in a dead zone, and not in an submission attempt, the game is over.

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correct.

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Originally Posted by Craig Murray

oh, i wasn't thinking clearly. If mount was an OT dead zone you could pick, perhaps you could transition to crucifix. But how can you transition to a crucifix from the back without leaving a deadzone? Is that possible? (forgive my whitebelt knowledge)

You start in a deadzone. If you stay in one, or transition from one to another, it's fine. If you attempt a submission but lose position with the submission attempt still going, you're fine. But as soon as you are both not in a dead zone, and not in an submission attempt, the game is over.

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Yes. Transitioning from the back to the crucifix, you would apply the kimura trap on one side of a guys upper body then triangle your legs on the other arm. You may not see it as common because it requires you to lose your back hooks. You would use your kimura trap to swim through your underhooking side and palm your head, to keep his arm away from his body. With the other arm crucifixed, he has no way to block the choke other than to tuck his chin. It's easier to show than explain, but yes the crucifix is a dead zone transition from another dead zone. I would recommend investing in these techniques and gaining knowledge in them, they're useful.

The mount is not an OT dead zone. It would imaginatively be harder to get the crucifix from mount because the crucifix requires having the guys back.

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Originally Posted by Craig Murray

oh, i wasn't thinking clearly. If mount was an OT dead zone you could pick, perhaps you could transition to crucifix. But how can you transition to a crucifix from the back without leaving a deadzone? Is that possible? (forgive my whitebelt knowledge)

You start in a deadzone. If you stay in one, or transition from one to another, it's fine. If you attempt a submission but lose position with the submission attempt still going, you're fine. But as soon as you are both not in a dead zone, and not in an submission attempt, the game is over.

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Are you still at Lovato's? I'm quite certain a lot of people would know the crucifix there.

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Originally Posted by Martin Harris

http://i.imgur.com/jkOQ9bj.png

This is why Geo won, I don't see the confusion.

*Edit - this is immediately after Geo pulled his arm free and before Eddie entangled the legs.

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Well you see my confusion came from the fact the Eddie Cummings is still controlling his leg.. AS Geo is in the process of escaping, and AS Eddie Cummings is in the process of transferring to this leg lock attempt, and yes it wouldve been an attempt had the match been allowed to continue. Your picture demonstrates that perfectly, and the fact that Eddie Cummings had Geo's leg FULLY entangled, shortly after this picture, doesn't help the confusion. I wasn't aware any submission attempts had be in deadzones (even though I didn't realize the Crucifix was considered a "DeadZone"), I was under the impression that if you were going for a sub, doesn't matter which one, that match continued... In fact, if I remember correctly, this was brought up at an EBI rules meeting, I saw a video of, where Eddie Cummings was actually used as an example, saying that if he transferred to a leg lock the match would continue... Also doesn't help with the confusion.

The picture clearly shows Geo got free, end of story. Whatever entangling happened after while he's waving his hands in celebration is totally irrelevant. Your argument seems to stem from your notion that Eddie Cummings is dangerous from there as it is likely he'll be able to get to a controlling and finishing position shortly after- it'd be a ridiculous ruleset that governs based on particular individual's perceived likelihood to get to a match finish from whatever spot.

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Originally Posted by Alexander N

The picture clearly shows Geo got free, end of story. Whatever entangling happened after while he's waving his hands in celebration is totally irrelevant. Your argument seems to stem from your notion that Eddie Cummings is dangerous from there as it is likely he'll be able to get to a controlling and finishing position shortly after- it'd be a ridiculous ruleset that governs based on particular individual's perceived likelihood to get to a match finish from whatever spot.

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The picture shows that while yes Eddie Cummings lost upper body control, he still had control of the leg and transferred almost immediately to a leg entanglement, that could have very well led to a submission attempt.. That is NOT Geo "clearly getting free"... When the match was stopped Eddie had Geos leg FULLY entangled.. It would be one thing if he stopped where the picture is, but he was deep on Geo's leg... "Your argument seems to stem from your notion that Eddie Cummings is dangerous from there as it is likely he'll be able to get to a controlling and finishing position shortly after- it'd be a ridiculous ruleset that governs based on particular individual's perceived likelihood to get to a match finish from whatever spot"... Not necessarily, I am simply questioning some of the finer points of the rules.. In fact Eddie (Bravo) himself has specifically said that if Eddie (Cummings) - specifically used him as an example - transfers to a leg lock the match the match continues... The first time in OT it happens, and the match ends? In my opinion, if you're going to implement a rule set based on escapes, you should have to escape to a relatively safe position... Not just losing upper body control, and winning even though your leg is still in danger... Let's ask this question (And I hope anyone feels free to answer because its another genuine question), If someone takes the back in OT, and the person escapes to guard, but as the person is getting to guard the person (now on bottom) throws up a triangle, but doesn't fully lock it in right away? Does the match end or keep going?

Keith - In my opinion if a single moment of full escape exists it is over. Honestly it was close to a good transition but not quite. Geo could have been caught slipping if Eddie had started the leg entanglement while he still had control of the arm. But that did not happen... Geo clearly freed him self of any submission attempt before Eddie entangled the legs. Having the leg overhooked by itself is nothing.

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Originally Posted by Keith D

Well you see my confusion came from the fact the Eddie Cummings is still controlling his leg.. AS Geo is in the process of escaping, and AS Eddie Cummings is in the process of transferring to this leg lock attempt, and yes it wouldve been an attempt had the match been allowed to continue. Your picture demonstrates that perfectly, and the fact that Eddie Cummings had Geo's leg FULLY entangled, shortly after this picture, doesn't help the confusion. I wasn't aware any submission attempts had be in deadzones (even though I didn't realize the Crucifix was considered a "DeadZone"), I was under the impression that if you were going for a sub, doesn't matter which one, that match continued... In fact, if I remember correctly, this was brought up at an EBI rules meeting, I saw a video of, where Eddie Cummings was actually used as an example, saying that if he transferred to a leg lock the match would continue... Also doesn't help with the confusion.

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No he does NOT have the Leg fully controlled.

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Originally Posted by Keith D

The picture shows that while yes Eddie Cummings lost upper body control, he still had control of the leg and transferred almost immediately to a leg entanglement, that could have very well led to a submission attempt.. That is NOT Geo "clearly getting free"... When the match was stopped Eddie had Geos leg FULLY entangled.. It would be one thing if he stopped where the picture is, but he was deep on Geo's leg... "Your argument seems to stem from your notion that Eddie Cummings is dangerous from there as it is likely he'll be able to get to a controlling and finishing position shortly after- it'd be a ridiculous ruleset that governs based on particular individual's perceived likelihood to get to a match finish from whatever spot"... Not necessarily, I am simply questioning some of the finer points of the rules.. In fact Eddie (Bravo) himself has specifically said that if Eddie (Cummings) - specifically used him as an example - transfers to a leg lock the match the match continues... The first time in OT it happens, and the match ends? In my opinion, if you're going to implement a rule set based on escapes, you should have to escape to a relatively safe position... Not just losing upper body control, and winning even though your leg is still in danger... Let's ask this question (And I hope anyone feels free to answer because its another genuine question), If someone takes the back in OT, and the person escapes to guard, but as the person is getting to guard the person (now on bottom) throws up a triangle, but doesn't fully lock it in right away? Does the match end or keep going?

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you cleary don't understand what control means, he was not in a full position of control when the match was called.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn4r95Rg_8I

at the 1:33 mark is a good example of a transition to that should be kept going as there is immediate CONTROL and and am immediate threat for the finish.

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Originally Posted by Keith D

The picture shows that while yes Eddie Cummings lost upper body control, he still had control of the leg and transferred almost immediately to a leg entanglement, that could have very well led to a submission attempt.. That is NOT Geo "clearly getting free"... When the match was stopped Eddie had Geos leg FULLY entangled.. It would be one thing if he stopped where the picture is, but he was deep on Geo's leg... "Your argument seems to stem from your notion that Eddie Cummings is dangerous from there as it is likely he'll be able to get to a controlling and finishing position shortly after- it'd be a ridiculous ruleset that governs based on particular individual's perceived likelihood to get to a match finish from whatever spot"... Not necessarily, I am simply questioning some of the finer points of the rules.. In fact Eddie (Bravo) himself has specifically said that if Eddie (Cummings) - specifically used him as an example - transfers to a leg lock the match the match continues... The first time in OT it happens, and the match ends? In my opinion, if you're going to implement a rule set based on escapes, you should have to escape to a relatively safe position... Not just losing upper body control, and winning even though your leg is still in danger... Let's ask this question (And I hope anyone feels free to answer because its another genuine question), If someone takes the back in OT, and the person escapes to guard, but as the person is getting to guard the person (now on bottom) throws up a triangle, but doesn't fully lock it in right away? Does the match end or keep going?

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I feel that the following point that you made yourself, answers this. "The picture shows that while yes Eddie Cummings lost upper body control, he still had control of the leg and transferred almost immediately to a leg entanglement, that could have very well led to a submission attempt.."

They can't ref the overtime on what could possibly happen. He was out of the immediate threat. I feel it's like if you spin in to someones full guard, and they set up rubber guard. You might get submitted there if the guy is good, but it's not an immediate threat like the back/spiderweb/crucifix/honeyhole/etc.

Not mention it wasn't an transition form deadzone to deadzone. Geo stacked him and completely escaped the armbar then stood up, thats when Cummings made a grab from the legs.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn4r95Rg_8I

at the 1:33 mark is a good example of a transition to that should be kept going as there is immediate CONTROL and and am immediate threat for the finish.

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Thanks for sharing that video with me man, also in response to a previous post, I do understand what control means, and there was a point where to me it looked like he had control of his leg.. Let me ask you, would that transition you showed me be allowed in EBI overtime? Attachment 3582

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Originally Posted by Keith D

Thanks for sharing that video with me man, also in response to a previous post, I do understand what control means, and there was a point where to me it looked like he had control of his leg.. Let me ask you, would that transition you showed me be allowed in EBI overtime? Attachment 3582

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Watch the EBI match again. The match was clearly called after the armbar escape, Eddie continued transitionin as it was called. In the video I showed was a EBI ot at a ISOF event. They difference was that Joey was immediately in on a heel hook from ashi, not trying to scramble for control.

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Originally Posted by Keith D

(even though I didn't realize the Crucifix was considered a "DeadZone")

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Sidebar from the current spirit of the thread:

It amazes me to see how many people don't consider the crucifix a deadzone. It mindboggles me. It befuddles me. Go train with Clark Gracie or someone with a comparable crucifix and tell me it isn't a dead zone.

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

Sidebar from the current spirit of the thread:

It amazes me to see how many people don't consider the crucifix a deadzone. It mindboggles me. It befuddles me. Go train with Clark Gracie or someone with a comparable crucifix and tell me it isn't a dead zone.

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He'll yeah it's a legit dead zone Barret Yoshida is a savage from there. 10th Planet Ann Arbor black belt Adlai Cleveland has taught 2 crucifix seminars at my gym. He's the man in 10p to seek out about the crucifix, has some serious black magic from there.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

He'll yeah it's a legit dead zone Barret Yoshida is a savage from there. 10th Planet Ann Arbor black belt Adlai Cleveland has taught 2 crucifix seminars at my gym. He's the man in 10p to seek out about the crucifix, has some serious black magic from there.

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What exactly qualifies as a deadzone? I assume its different in OT rules? In Eddie's Mastering the Twister DVD, he only names off a few of them. He says Spiderweb, the Truck, Back, and (I could be mistaken here) I thought he said mount was a dead zone. But he didn't say the crucifix was a deadzone in that DVD (that I am sure), although I agree it should be.

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Originally Posted by Keith D

What exactly qualifies as a deadzone? I assume its different in OT rules? In Eddie's Mastering the Twister DVD, he only names off a few of them. He says Spiderweb, the Truck, Back, and (I could be mistaken here) I thought he said mount was a dead zone. But he didn't say the crucifix was a deadzone in that DVD (that I am sure), although I agree it should be.

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Invisible collar is a dead zone.

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Originally Posted by Keith D

What exactly qualifies as a deadzone?

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A dead zone is a point in the fight that if both guys do everything right, the guy on offense should win 100% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

A dead zone is a point in the fight that if both guys do everything right, the guy on offense should win 100% of the time.

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Thank you for clarifying, so is the mount considered a deadzone officially? In MtT dvd, Eddie says it is, has that changed?

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Originally Posted by Keith D

Thank you for clarifying, so is the mount considered a deadzone officially? In MtT dvd, Eddie says it is, has that changed?

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Mount is not a dead zone. However, the Chopping Block (the pre-arm triangle position) from mount is a dead zone.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Mount is not a dead zone. However, the Chopping Block (the pre-arm triangle position) from mount is a dead zone.

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Oh Ok, I think I got it now... I was just confused because in Eddies MTT dvd, he only said there were 4 deadzones.. Back, Truck, Spider Web, and Mount... Just watched the whole dvd again this morning.. Is the chopping block with the knee on the chest (like the impaler)?

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Originally Posted by Keith D

Oh Ok, I think I got it now... I was just confused because in Eddies MTT dvd, he only said there were 4 deadzones.. Back, Truck, Spider Web, and Mount... Just watched the whole dvd again this morning.. Is the chopping block with the knee on the chest (like the impaler)?

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No just the pre-arm triangle position from mount, the track stance (knee on belly or chest/implaler) is after you have the arm triangle secured.

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Originally Posted by Keith D

Oh Ok, I think I got it now... I was just confused because in Eddies MTT dvd, he only said there were 4 deadzones.. Back, Truck, Spider Web, and Mount... Just watched the whole dvd again this morning.. Is the chopping block with the knee on the chest (like the impaler)?

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There are other dead zones too. The vice grip position is a dead zone. The arm-in guillotine/front headlock position is a dead zone. The honey hole position or outside ashi positions would both be dead zones. Anything where you wold have to fuck up pretty bad to not get a submission is a dead zone.