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Originally Posted by
VIVIANO
Awesome Neil, this adds two important nuances to the discussion. If you don't mind, I'm gonna respond to them in the opposite order. The second argument you made was something like: BJJ has been a victim of its own success, since part of a techniques' effectiveness is the fact that your opponent is not ready for it. Your first point is about the cost and characteristics of wrestling training for kids, I think that is a good point too, and I'll talk about it in my next post.
Cool. :)
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So I agree that part of a techniques' effectiveness is the fact that it is new, or surprising, or unknown to your opponent. To take a non-BJJ example, when Anderson fought Belfort, another master striker, he had to do something unexpected (the front kick to the face) in order finish Belfort. Now, there are still front kicks landing, but they are harder to land because fighters are expecting them (especially after Machida landed it again on Randy). Analogously, part of BJJ's initial success was the fact that the guard and submissions were so foreign to the traditional martial artists. Once Matt Hughes studied Jiu Jitsu for a while, he could shut Royce's Jiu Jitsu down, then win the fight with his better athleticism and striking. Similarly, Sakaraba was such a problem for the Gracie's because he had such an unorthodox submission game, one they weren't seeing regularly in practice. If that is true, then Wrestlers will start to lose their dominance because strikers will add takedown defense to their games, and BJJ guys are getting better takedowns.
Everyone is adding TD Defense to their game. Wrestlers are naturally good at it as it is crucial to having any success in wrestling. Statistically the one who gets the take down almost always wins in Wrestling.
But I would add another thing I realized I had left out of my previous posts. There is also something to be said for simplicity of technique. Going to call on my Jeet Kune Do fanboyism a bit here but everything Bruce brought into his game was streamlined, spartan, and direct. While submissions are not all very complicated the learning curve on getting extremely good with them as opposed to the learning curve of learning adequate submission defense is not an even race. This for example is why a lot of the standing submissions and wrist locks from arts like Aikido and JJJ don't find their way into the ring. People just pull their hands away from you because they see it coming. The same is starting to happen with BJJ submissions. You can spend decades of your life practicing JJJ submissions and destructions and be able to pull them off sometimes. Now BJJ submissions are far easier to pull off then JJJ ones but I think you get my point.
The wrestler game of takedown+ground and pound is very simple to master. And is far more difficult to counter.
Furthermore, Wrestlers make good strikers. Randy Couture actually had very little boxing experience before he went into MMA (contrary to popular belief, he hit pads in the military but he never went father then that.) but the natural strong as hell core that wrestlers have make for powerful punchers. Athleticism is a requirement for strong striking. And that's why wrestlers make that transition better then people going from BJJ to striking.
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I think this sort of evolution happens on a wider scale. Initially, the countries that were best at the martial arts won wars, then the countries with the best swords won...then guns, missiles, nuclear bombs. However, as the offensive weapons evolve, so do the defensive measures. As we have gone from swords to guns, we have also gone from armor to bullet proof vests. Because the rear naked choke has been such a powerful finishing move, guys have gotten really good at RNC defense, to the point that it is really hard to get one in the UFC.
I think that situation is just going to keep happening with every submission.
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I think this brings up a problem in BJJ of "tradition," "hespect," "basics" etc etc. I think you could argue that certain parts of the BJJ community have failed to embrace new techniques now that the old school moves are too well known. It's hard to imagine that being apart of 10th planet and the mass of innovative BJJ players, but I think it is not the case in every association. For example, RNC's are incredibly hard to get in the UFC right now, but I don't see fighters transition to the truck to set up a calf slicer or twister or another back take with better wrist control. Because moves like the truck are much newer and more innovative, opponents have had less time to develop familiarity or defenses to the truck.
However, the counter argument is while widely known techniques lose their surprise factor, there is a reason why they became mainstream, its usually because they have been proven in the past. Any style has to strike a balance between these two extremes.
Don't disagree with anything there.
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Also, there are non-martial arts factors in fighting that have experienced a similar evolution, and heavily influence fights. Guys are better and better at cutting weight, strength/conditioning and diet/nutrition. Wrestlers are known for being experts in cutting weight, BJJ tournament discourage weight cutting with day in weigh ins.
As someone who is the parent of two wrestlers I am happy to say they have at least in youth wrestling taken measures to deal with the weight cutting issue. Personally this is something I agree with Joe Rogan about 100%. It should not be a thing at all. I am all for weigh ins an hour before a fight. Fight at the damn weight you are supposed to be fighting at. If you are not at that weight, then do healthy things to get yourself there. People should not be cutting 30 lbs by just not drinking water, getting into heat suits, on exercise bikes IN the SAUNA and then walking into the ring 30 lbs heavier then the weight class they are competing in. Hell, put the damn scale right outside the ring as they go in.
On the other side of it, some wrestlers get good at this because in the middle school and high school level where most wrestling takes place you try out for a specific weight class and if you don't maintain that weight class you don't get to compete. Unfortunately that's part of the issue with the "Dual Teams" method of competition.
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Wrestlers are known for their strength and conditioning, BJJ values technique over strength, and the little guy being able to beat the big guy. I don't really know about the difference in diet/nutrition between wrestling and BJJ or there is one. The point is, Wrestlers seem to be better at two really important factors in an MMA fight, the weight cut and strength/conditioning. That definitely explains some of the Wreslter's success, and an opportunity for improvement in BJJ (although Anthony Johnson proves you can take the weight cut too far.)
There is nothing to stop BJJ and Judo players from adapting to the level of intensity that wrestlers train at. For some reason the BJJ and Judo world has just never done so. I think an important point to mention though is that a strong part of that conditioning is cardio/endurance of the core, not just the strength.
There is also a lot of technique to wrestling and you see it with wrestlers who are not naturally strong. Particularly with the girls who are generally forced to compete against boys most of their careers. My daughter generally gets stuck wrestling boys who outweigh her by 10-15 lbs at some tournaments and that means a lot when you are 75 lbs. She still wins matches when she is against people who have been wrestling about as long as her but to do so she has to wrestle smart. I admit that the wrestling game needs more options for that but hey, that's why my daughter is going to be enrolled in 10th Planet to learn some ways to move people around with leverage. :)