[serious] What type of knowledge do you think training in the gi gives a grappler?

[Aiseop]

Thanks. Was just curious if there was any room for thinking that someone like me does, in fact, benefit as a grappler by having half his time in a gi, in this forum. I appreciate the thoughtful responses, including Eddie's. I have my own thoughts but that's neither here nor there because those thoughts aren't up for debate, but, let's just say if I ran things at my school, I'd flip the gi vs no-gi offerings. With that said, I remember someone said here that what makes the 10th Planet system work is an open mind, not the lockdown or rubber guard. I was wondering if this applied to the gi, as well; to think, well, it's not for me, but I can see its use, etc., or something along those lines of thoughts, after all, Master Jean Jacques Machado would be someone I'm sure we'd all listen to on this subject, even if we disagree.

[Mike Nall]

Thanks. Was just curious if there was any room for thinking that someone like me does, in fact, benefit as a grappler by having half his time in a gi, in this forum. I appreciate the thoughtful responses, including Eddie's. I have my own thoughts but that's neither here nor there because those thoughts aren't up for debate, but, let's just say if I ran things at my school, I'd flip the gi vs no-gi offerings. With that said, I remember someone told said here that what makes the 10th Planet system work is an open mind, not the lockdown or rubber guard. I was wondering if this applied to the gi, as well; to think, well, it's not for me, but I can see it's use, etc., or something along those lines of thoughts; after all, Master Jean Jacques Machado would be someone I'm sure we'd all listen to on this subject, even if we disagree.

Good post.

The only people I would advise to seriously train hard in both are competitive grapplers training to be the best in the world. This means training gi during gi season for the Pans, Worlds, World Pro Cup, and training no-gi during no-gi season for ADCC, NoGi Pans, and NoGi Worlds. I'm not one of those guys that thinks MMA fighters need to supplement with gi training. I don't think it would hurt them if they did it every blue moon, but as far as people that are moving out to Atos, or AOJ, or Checkmat, or Alliance with the goal of being an elite competitor, even at the colored belt levels, I think it's pretty damn important that they do both. All of the elite schools are catering their competition classes to what tournaments are on deck, so like I said that's gi classes during gi season (1st half of the year) and no-gi during no-gi season (2nd half of the year).

Keenan Cornelius is a great example of this. he has a bad ass no-gi dvd set. He's a no-gi worlds gold medalist at black belt and at brown belt. He's a double bronze medalist at his first ADCC in 2013. He has one of the most unique no-gi styles on earth, super unique guard game and passing, and he finishes almost everyone in always new and exciting ways. Crazy leg locks, ridiculous chokes from across the room, and nasty arm locks. This is a guy that's recently said if he never had to do no-gi again in his life he'd be just fine with it, then 10 mins later said that he enjoys the freedom of movement in no-gi.

He's a product of being a die hard competitor that does both. He busts his ass in both and is elite as it gets in both. Rant over. I don't even know what I was trying to get at. Keenan is awesome, and if anyone wants to compete full time, look at what he's doing.

[Neil Kiernan]

Not here for the old gi vs nogi thing. I train both ways. I'm curious, though, if the nogi exclusive folk see value (even if minimal) in training in a gi.

My personal take is that in gi schools like mine, it should be 50/50 between the two forms, but most schools do a 80 gi/20 nogi split. I think this is a disservice. To be clear, I'm NOT here to advocate for the inclusion of gi at 10th Planet schools - I'm not that presumptuous. Besides, I just got here to even have an opinion on it. I'm just genuinely curious if anyone has had an "itch to don a gi" and for what reason (other than they look cool...).

Thanks in advance.

I am still learning, and I mostly got involved in all this because of my kids. They primarily wrestle at the moment so far as grappling and they do some Judo. The feeling of grappling with someone in a smooth and slippery wrestling singlet or rash guard and the feeling of grappling with someone in a course and moisture-absorbing gi is very different. My kid's time at Judo did help them a bit with wrestling, but it was in SPITE of the gi they wore. I encouraged them not to become dependent on grips in Judo, because nothing they learned that relied on gi grips could help them in wrestling.

In the other direction though, their no-gi wrestling experience made them terrors in Judo. And seems to be helping them in the small amount of gi BJJ they have done.

I read Eddie's book and some articles where he is interviewed. What he says makes perfect sense. The only place that almost all of the gi techniques you learn in standard BJJ are EVER going to be useful is if you are fighting someone who is wearing a gi. Other then the occasional assailant in a winter jacket you are never going to be able to use any of that in self defense, and you certainly can't use it on shirtless MMA fighters.

[Joshua Jarboe]

Not here for the old gi vs nogi thing. I train both ways. I'm curious, though, if the nogi exclusive folk see value (even if minimal) in training in a gi.

Yeah, but my thinking on the subject is a bit larger than "will training in the gi help me?" My (white belt) thinking is that training in the gi will help 10th Planet AND me. Please pardon me for getting a bit emotionally involved in this topic. We all want our friends to be friends. I want 10th Planet to be friends with the rest of the Entire Effing BJJ Universe and it's frustrating watching them / us in self imposed isolation.

Self defense I suspect that training in the gi is helpful for self defense as long as you avoid a totally sleeve dependent game. Most folks have collars. But I am somewhat doubtful that anybody is going to play spider guard in a street fight.

Legitimacy I suspect that training in the gi gives your school legitimacy in the eyes of people who think about gis when you say Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and integrates you with the larger whole. This is what an ambassador from 10th Planet to the rest of the BJJ world would do. Rejecting the orthodox players outright could make our movement insular. Imagine if you were trying to get a friend to listen to your favorite band. He listens to a couple songs and seems to dig it. When he wants you to listen to a couple songs, you get all weird like "No man, I don't listen to that crap." You think he's going to want to chill with you and listen to music again soon? Nah.

Do you think that folks that have trained in the gi for 8 years are going to be comfortable dropping everything and picking a 10th Planet No-Gi Only school over a school that is open minded and does 50/50? I doubt it.

Ranking There are questions as to whether a 10th Planet black belt is a "real" black belt because they may not have trained in the gi in their entire lives and might well get smoked by a purple belt in the gi. How do you answer that? Yes, we have purple belts that can smoke black belts no-gi. I want to have the best of both worlds and have a rank that the whole BJJ world doesn't sneer at. But more important than that, much more important than that, I want to see 10th Planet killing it in the gi so people can't hide anymore. I want to be a part of that, I want my sons to be a part of making that real.

Marcelo Garcia and JJM I suspect that training 50/50 like Marcelo Garcia is probably going to be at least one valid solution (because Marcelo Garcia) and that nobody who adopts that position has to get uppity about it. It's not the only solution, but dude: Marcelo Garcia. Your argument is invalid. 50/50!

Jean Jacque Machado trains in the gi plenty. What would he say? Do we really think he doesn't have much BJJ to teach?

Fun Lastly, I'm enjoying it because gi and nogi are different but similar games. Taking the 10th planet approach to the gi will, I hope, yield discoveries nobody has made yet because most 10th Planet people would rather be buried naked than be buried in a gi and many gi players automatically assume that you smoke weed and believe in aliens and that the government is lying about 9/11 if they see you playing 10th Planet game. It's their loss. It's our loss too. It might make room for my sons to be great.

Bad Habits Regarding bad habits, I suspect that nogi can give you bad habits for self defense like assuming that this or that will work like when you're wearing a rashguard and shorts when in reality, the dude can make things hard for you by grabbing your shirt or pants. Have you tried doing the electric chair in the gi (or while wearing a shirt?) It's different. Harder. Professor Bravo (heh heh) is right, I suspect, when he says that gi and nogi are very different and that tugging and pulling is by no means going to help you with your clinching and squeezing. Same argument works in reverse: that tugging stuff works pretty good on people who aren't naked. BJJ isn't just MMA, it isn't just tournament. It's a martial art. I ask myself: which is truer to martial applications? Probably the gi. MMA is just an amazing place to prove that BJJ is the best, so as ambassadors to the world, we should train no-gi too.

Being Open Minded Lastly, I suspect that the most important reason that 10th Planet should consider the gi is to help gi players consider 10th Planet. It's hard to look open minded when you've made up your mind that 97% of the BJJ community is way off-base. It's a very difficult argument to make that "I'm open minded, I just think that 97% of the world is retarded."

Sufficiency All that said, I bet that if you do what Professor Bravo says and train in a rashguard and gi pants, you'll do pretty gosh darn well. Just never in IBJJF gi competitions. So doubt will ever be on the minds of skeptics and we'll never really have an answer for them as to why 10th Planet doesn't sweep IBJJF Worlds in the gi if all those awesome no-gi techiques transfer over just fine. But...

Tournaments I get to go to gi tournaments and win. Odds are good you don't unless you train in the gi. I get to do both. Bam.

Disclaimer and personal note I'm just a white belt, but I have the privilege of training with a five time world champion in the gi who is very open minded. I love gi BJJ. I love no-gi BJJ. Peace.

Aiesop, I wish I could give you more Reputation for asking such a great question but the system won't let me. I think you're a real ambassador.

[Bryan Gore]

How to use people's clothes against them, and more importantly, how to keep people from using your clothes against you.

That's it.

[Damian J]

When I first found 10th Planet in SD, I thought I'd train both gi and no gi. But, it's ended up that I feel better going twice a day to 10th planet than I do going back to the gi. I had my blue belt before switching over, but I feel that since I've been exposed to the system, the intellectual aspect of bjj is speeding up for me exponentially. Part of it is that I feel that, with 10th Planet, there is a flow from technique to technique and position to position instead of the stagnant way that some more traditional gi schools seem to teach. Again, I only am a blue belt so maybe it's different the more advanced you get in each school. Also, the warmups that Eddie has put together are an incredible way to speed up fundamental knowledge of bjj. Every school could look at those and learn a lot. And most bjj schools who say they have a "curriculum", really don't seem to. Yes, Gracie Barra says they do, but from what my buddies from there tell me...that varies from school to school. So, Aiesop, back to your original question. I think I came to 10PJJ with a solid base that possibly has helped me pick the system up quickly...but I am spending 100% of my time training no gi now. I don't see myself going back to the gi anytime soon. I don't feel that it offers me anything I'm looking for as a grappler.

[Mike Nall]

Other then the occasional assailant in a winter jacket you are never going to be able to use any of that in self defense.

You'd be surprised. I wish I could find the video, but we tried it out. Collar chokes like the cross collar/X choke and the baseball choke work very good on a t shirt. I live in an area where winter coats are very uncommon except for a couple months a year, but some t shirts don't rip super easy. I still for self defense would rather learn something that works in both clothing and no clothing (connecting grips, nogi grips, clinching work) instead of clothing grips, but I do take comfort in knowing that if someone's wearing a fleece or a hoodie I'd be fine to choke the shit out of them with it if I needed to. I still think RNC > all for self defense.

[Greg W]

I feel like, early in your training, the gi may help with some good posture habits. As a general observation, not everybody of course, I see slightly inferior posture habits from 100% straight no gi people. I have mentally noted this in visits to other gyms, my own training partners and watching comp videos of others.

[elon hodge]

I train gi about 90% of the time but i like no gi more. Also i like medals and competing so i do both gi and no gi tournament's. And gi makes your no gi better and ves versa

[nathan cybul]

i rarely train with th gi, but when i travel and i have to do it, then when i come back to no gi, i feel myself out of timing.