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  1. #21
    Aaron Gustaveson's Avatar
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    -Admissions from individuals wouldn't be good evidence in and of itself, maybe they could provide actual evidence.
    -You could not make a long term localized effect if you were releasing particulates in the upper atmosphere. There is too much air movement. The stratosphere has a lot of mixing. I could think of many other ways to get physical evidence but sampling the stratosphere in different areas of the world would only show differences if the substance was being released chronologically close to the time you sampled. Even if you showed differences you would also have to show that these difference are beyond what could be explained by industry and other sources.

    Near Airports where aircraft are flying low, enough regular contrails can produce a local cooling effect.

    Research grants are not given by the shadow government or even "the government" (what ever that means). I have worked on projects that were funded by grants, and been involved in grant writing. The organizations that provide research grants are first of all both public and private. Research grants are granted by organizations with numerous people involved like NSF. A very massive conspiracy would have to be in place for the direction of research to be controlled by a shadow government. Other governments have their own similar organizations that award publicly funded grants, so they would have to be in collusion. Then there's the matter of privately funded research which is much more common than people seem to think. Possible, not probable.

    The US, China, Russia, and Europeans colluding a conspiracy of this scale is laughable imo. In all of history the only thing we ever agreed on is to disagree.

    For the highlander 2 style, block out the radiation method you would need thousands of aircraft spraying everyday all over the world. Just look at the research that was funded to investigate the potential of these tactics.

    I would say it makes no sense logistically and is improbable politically.

    Can we get a satellite image showing unexplained patterns of flights?
    Pictures of aircraft with equipment to do the spraying? Youre not claiming they pass large volumes of particulates through jets engines right?

    Eddie like to use the analogy that your gf is the former neighborhood whore, now someone is telling you that shes fucking around on you and youre saying, no she wouldn't do that. (this is intended to be analogous to "the government" having been caught in conspiracies before) I think its more like your gf is the former neighborhood whore, now someone is telling you that shes fucking around on you with bigfoot and youre saying, I'll need some evidence.

    All things are possible, is this probable?
    What would you say is the best evidence?

  2. #22
    Ross Davidson's Avatar
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    So you're telling me, if the President, one of his cabinet members, or a head of an agency were to admit that they were systematically releasing sulfuric acid into the atmosphere to counteract global warming, that wouldn't be good enough evidence? lol.

    You do realize how large the atmosphere is, right? You cannot possibly take samples from one location and expect to get the same results everywhere. That's like sampling the water of the Gulf of Mexico, expecting to find something out about the Indian Ocean. But the actual methods of the experiment aren't important for this conversation; we're not going to have any research done on this, so we don't need to create the parameters of an experiment. The bottom line remains though: it would cost a LOT of money.

    I don't know why you say "shadow government". No one here was talking about something like that. Not me at least. There's no need for one. Grants are dispersed and controlled by agencies. Agencies are controlled by the Executive Branch. The Executive Branch is ultimately controlled by one person. If this were a real conspiracy happening, the "Executive" would have his or her "ears" open on this subject, and could easily give orders to not fund any research project that has to do with whatever is being covered up. Also, the reason why I say the grants would be governmental is because there's no profit to be made from a research project like this. And why do private entities give out grants for research? To make money, not to try and prove that a government is conspiring something.

    Europeans? I didn't say that I think any European countries would need to be involved in any behind the scenes negotiations. And also, that is exactly why under the table talks would be better for those involved. Politics could be avoided. The only thing laughable here is to think that human beings are above lying and scheming. Let's face it, every single person on earth is a liar: children, teenagers, girlfriends, boyfriends, police, lawyers, thieves, [B]politicians[B], and even you and I are dishonest. Why in the flying fuck would someone stop lying once they obtain political power? That would make absolutely no sense, to change your ways while you're a winner in the system you "compete" in.

    I'm at a loss as to your analogy. Especially when you consider Operation Northwoods, Gulf of Tonkin, the FBI poisoning liquor during prohibition, Operation Mockingbird, or even COINTELPRO. You really think that people have changed that much between one or two generations? Shit. If they were doing all that way back in the day, without all their modern gadgets, imagine what they're doing today! — Oh wait. Can you say, PRISM?

    And like I said before, as I've said since the beginning as to why Joe doesn't come out and boldly make these claims alongside Eddie, the citizens don't have evidence. And if there is/was evidence to be obtained, the people doing these things would do everything in their power to make sure nobody finds out about it.

    And as for your Highlander 2 remark, watch the video I posted. Not only has this method been known since Lyndon B Johnson, it's not difficult to actually put into practice (you don't actually need to add much H2SO4 to the atmosphere to do this, which makes it even more questionable whether they've already started doing it), if you lay aside all the political baby mamma drama—which would be the exact reason why there would be these secretive deals.

    Here's the video again:
    http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/video...d2/david-keith
    "You know you cannot escape death, but immortality can be obtained."



  3. #23

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    Hopefully they aren't sprinkling stuff to reflect light back. That did not go well in Snowpiercer

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    Hopefully they aren't sprinkling stuff to reflect light back. That did not go well in Snowpiercer
    Just watched that today. Have to love Korean movies and their ridiculousness and not giving a damn.

  5. #25
    Aaron Gustaveson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    So you're telling me, if the President, one of his cabinet members, or a head of an agency were to admit that they were systematically releasing sulfuric acid into the atmosphere to counteract global warming, that wouldn't be good enough evidence? lol.
    No, that would be more likely an indication that they were having mental problems. Of course if they were able to point to a great number of corroborative evidence, that would be different. Individual statements from personal experience are never evidence. That is called an “anecdotal fallacy” or “arguing form personal experience”, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    You do realize how large the atmosphere is, right? You cannot possibly take samples from one location and expect to get the same results everywhere. That's like sampling the water of the Gulf of Mexico, expecting to find something out about the Indian Ocean. But the actual methods of the experiment aren't important for this conversation; we're not going to have any research done on this, so we don't need to create the parameters of an experiment. The bottom line remains though: it would cost a LOT of money.
    The size of the atmosphere (more the amount of circulation actually) is exactly what I pointed out when saying that YOUR idea of sampling different locations would not be an appropriate experimental design. I’m wondering if you actually read my post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    “Well the only way to know for sure is to have an admission by those that are doing it or to actually do chemical composition comparisons of stratosphere air from around the world.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    I don't know why you say "shadow government". No one here was talking about something like that. Not me at least. There's no need for one. Grants are dispersed and controlled by agencies. Agencies are controlled by the Executive Branch. The Executive Branch is ultimately controlled by one person. If this were a real conspiracy happening, the "Executive" would have his or her "ears" open on this subject, and could easily give orders to not fund any research project that has to do with whatever is being covered up. Also, the reason why I say the grants would be governmental is because there's no profit to be made from a research project like this. And why do private entities give out grants for research? To make money, not to try and prove that a government is conspiring something.
    I used the term shadow government because it is essentially required for this conspiracy to operate. You are still suggesting a massive conspiracy here (involving the president and all the member of all the agencies and foundations that give grants public and private) You are also suggesting a system by which the excutive would be made privy to any research on the topic, this system would require collusion from many parties just in itself. Private interest funds a vast array of research in areas that may not produce direct monetary benefit. In fact it is so common that just by chance; my gf is currently working for a private firm doing botany field work. I’m considering applying for a staff position with a privately funded environmental advocacy group now myself. People who are not involved in actually doing science have a lot of misconceptions about how science is funded and conducted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    Europeans? I didn't say that I think any European countries would need to be involved in any behind the scenes negotiations. And also, that is exactly why under the table talks would be better for those involved. Politics could be avoided. The only thing laughable here is to think that human beings are above lying and scheming. Let's face it, every single person on earth is a liar: children, teenagers, girlfriends, boyfriends, police, lawyers, thieves, [B]politicians[B], and even you and I are dishonest. Why in the flying fuck would someone stop lying once they obtain political power? That would make absolutely no sense, to change your ways while you're a winner in the system you "compete" in.
    You’re right, I added the European because they have advanced technology in their public and private sectors and would know if this was happing. Seems like a small point for you to pick at though. I never said nor would I contend,
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    “human beings are above lying and scheming”
    In fact I count on it. This is part of why keeping such a tremendous secret is nearly impossible. Seems you’re a bit emotional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    I'm at a loss as to your analogy. Especially when you consider Operation Northwoods, Gulf of Tonkin, the FBI poisoning liquor during prohibition, Operation Mockingbird, or even COINTELPRO. You really think that people have changed that much between one or two generations? Shit. If they were doing all that way back in the day, without all their modern gadgets, imagine what they're doing today! — Oh wait. Can you say, PRISM?
    But you did understand the analogy, or rather the modified version of eddies analogy, right? I don’t think people have changed at all. I think that, despite a handful of somewhat large conspiracies having occurred; the particular conspiracy you are contend to be probable is tremendously larger in logistics than even the Bay of Pigs and a much greater number of military and non-military persons would have to be involved including the governments and many of the scientist of the world’s first-world nations. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In this case a single piece of evidence would be a nice place to start.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    And like I said before, as I've said since the beginning as to why Joe doesn't come out and boldly make these claims alongside Eddie, the citizens don't have evidence.
    If the citizens don’t have evidence then why do “the citizens” believe this to be true? Imo all that a rational person can claim is that we don’t know with certainly if it is true or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    And if there is/was evidence to be obtained, the people doing these things would do everything in their power to make sure nobody finds out about it.
    Yes, but if you are suggesting that this is why we don’t have evidence and that this condition should excuses the need for evidence then I’m afraid you are using circular logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    And as for your Highlander 2 remark, watch the video I posted. Not only has this method been known since Lyndon B Johnson, it's not difficult to actually put into practice (you don't actually need to add much H2SO4 to the atmosphere to do this, which makes it even more questionable whether they've already started doing it), if you lay aside all the political baby mamma drama—which would be the exact reason why there would be these secretive deals.
    In the video clip you linked (I guess that’s your response to my request for evidenced?) David Keith says you would have to put about 20,000 tons of sulfuric acid in one year and we would have to add more each year. The numbers he suggests are what he thinks would be sufficient to slow global warming and allow a little more time to implement reductions in carbon emissions. Even still he claims that a few modified planes could accomplish this in one year. The G6 jet they mention has a maximum payload of 6,500 lbs. That would take 17 trips per day even if you took the whole year to disperse the h2so4. Ok that’s do-able. But the H2SO4 needs to be distributed across the globe and despite the amount of circulation in the stratosphere if you were taking a full year to disperse the acid. It would have to be dispersed from multiple locations around the world or it would fall out of the atmosphere as acid rain too quickly to evenly spread. That would require not only collusion from many governments but also would increase the size of the fleet need to do the job. (Fleet size still seems do-able) Most major first world nations in the world would detect this. Keith points out that all the major nations would have to agree in the interview. Russia actually is set to benefit by global warming with increased land mass and waterways
    Look more at how David Keith’s ideas relates to chem-trails. Like he said you would need specially modified planes. I’m assuming his 20,000 ton figure is based on high molarity H2SO4 that would destroy a jet engine quickly. There is an opportunity for evidence a plane, a pic of a plane, images of flight paths, measurable increase in atmospheric H2SO4 (this is already heavily monitored by public and private entities in multiple nations) In order to avoid noticeable localized acid rain you would have to spray this at the upper limits of a common planes altitude capability. So why are commercial aircraft, apparently without modified equipment, producing persistent contrails during low elevation flights?

    In the end none of the questions I posed here are really important. You cannot scientifically prove a negative. What is important is evidence, where is the evidence? Until we have it all rational people like Joe can say is, we don’t know. I want this to be true so I can get that sweet tat but it has to be demonstrated to be true with evidence.
    Last edited by Aaron Gustaveson; 09-15-2014 at 01:29 AM.
    GO SHARKS!

    "A conspiracy theorist is a person who tacitly admits that they have insufficient data to prove their points. A conspiracy theory is a battle cry of a person with insufficient data." Neil DeGrasse Tyson

    If this shit turns out to be true, I will get a tattoo of a crop duster spelling out the phrase, "Eddie was right!"

  6. #26

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    It is perfect.

  7. #27
    Ross Davidson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson View Post
    But the H2SO4 needs to be distributed across the globe and despite the amount of circulation in the stratosphere if you were taking a full year to disperse the acid.
    This line alone demonstrates the logical inconsistency of your argument.

    And, btw, I'm very rational. Rationalism doesn't require concrete evidence. All that is required is critical thinking. You just fail to recognize the critical thinking behind why a conspiracy like this would occur. Your attempt at trying to make me out to seem emotional has failed, kind sir.
    "You know you cannot escape death, but immortality can be obtained."



  8. #28
    Aaron Gustaveson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    This line alone demonstrates the logical inconsistency of your argument.

    And, btw, I'm very rational. Rationalism doesn't require concrete evidence. All that is required is critical thinking. You just fail to recognize the critical thinking behind why a conspiracy like this would occur. Your attempt at trying to make me out to seem emotional has failed, kind sir.
    Can you explain the logical inconsistency, I dont see it? I think you are confused as why the amount of atmospheric circulation would be too great to use sampling at different areas of the globe to test for chemicals and yet it is not enough to spread the amount of acid he is talking about in sufficient time. It is not an inconsistency, just because you dont understand. It has to do with the amount of substance released, elevation at which it is released, the substance itself and the time frame that X amount must be added to the atmosphere to make it work. What Keith proposes doesn't seem to be inline with what chemtrail believers are contending. Then again, as I said before, there are many different camps of chemtrail peps, so any discussion has to start with them explaining exactly what they think is going on.

    Rationalism requires reason not critical thinking. Critical thinking is a buzz word invented by people that write english text for middle school kids. It is pretty much synonymous with common sense but is not a pathway to truth like reasoning. CT CAN include reasoning but doesn't necessarily have to, it can be based on observation, experience, reflection, or communication.

    I made no attempt to make you SEEM emotional, I just pointed out that the language you used would lead anyone to infer that you were emotional.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiseop View Post
    Where am I? Are 10th planet folk heavy with conspiracy theorists?
    When it comes to threads like these, I suspect many of us duck our heads rather than get sucked into a debate as to whether there is a new world order that is using airplanes to poison people (which seems rather inefficient. Perhaps the NWO needs a new president?) or whether pot cures cancer or whether the government is lying about 9/11 or ....whatever.

    Most people in the world have something they get a bit fringe with. That's fine. So I guess we try to avoid fighting about stupid stuff?

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Davidson View Post
    This line alone demonstrates the logical inconsistency of your argument.

    And, btw, I'm very rational. Rationalism doesn't require concrete evidence. All that is required is critical thinking. You just fail to recognize the critical thinking behind why a conspiracy like this would occur. Your attempt at trying to make me out to seem emotional has failed, kind sir.
    I don't think that's true.

    Critical thinking is good.

    But critical thinking with no basis in reality, no evidence...doesn't seem very critical at all does it?

    SKEPTICISM requires no basis in reality. If you simply don't have a position but you're not willing to adopt one because no one has made their case, that's reasonable.

    Example: I'm a skeptic when it comes to Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (CAGW). I've heard the arguments, I've seen the models, I've seen the measurements. I don't buy it. Am I ready to provide a detailed computer model for my own theories? Not even close. I just don't believe in CAGW and am willing to be convinced.

    I'm also a skeptic when it comes to chemtrails. If you wanted to poison people, why wouldn't you use systems we all get our drinking water from instead of defusing it through the air of an entire effing country? Whoever is running the NWO is probably totes retarded if he's doing that mang.


    In propositional logic, the burden of proof is on whomever is making the proposition. The burden of proof is shifted when sufficient proof has been given that a rebuttal begins to need to be made. And at that point, the counterargument is still another proposition (in case that helps).

    Throwing out some interesting stuff as a student of logic, I haven't read this whole thread (and hope to avoid it).
    Last edited by Joshua Jarboe; 09-15-2014 at 02:08 PM.

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