[serious] What type of knowledge do you think training in the gi gives a grappler?

[Neil Kiernan]

Dude that is depressing.

I guess you just gotta be an ASSASIN and grab that shit in the first round lol

You are certainly more likely to pull it off in the first round. Aside from the other things pointed out there is the fact that if you are down there you are "losing" in the eyes of the judges even if the guy on top is not doing anything of significance to you. The Gracie Breakdown did a video about GSP once and pointed out how he prioritizes top position over going for submissions and finishes because that wins MMA fights.

[Amir Allam]

Jiu-jitsu does not need MMA; nor does it need the street to be valuable. It is valuable on its own, a beautiful sport that we fall in love and addiction with, and in which the grand, very grand majority of us, will never be able to translate it onto the pavement or the MMA canvas.

Your entire post was wonderful and insightful, but in the interest of space I'm only quoting this, the beautiful distilled essence. We should discuss jiujitsu for jiujitsu's sake, and the effectiveness of jiujitsu technique qua jiujitsu.

What are we gaining from jiujitsu? From a purely physical perspective we're gaining strength, balance, an understanding of mechanics as applied to the human body. We're also learning about discipline, self-confidence, competitiveness, mutual respect... the philosophical and personal gifts of jiujitsu are manifold. You reap these rewards in or out of the gi.

Speaking purely mechanically and purely from personal experience, when I roll against gi players of similar size and experience to myself, they have crushing grip strength and air-tight defense. I have a much harder time submitting a gi brown belt than a no-gi brown belt, on average. On the other hand, I'm able to pass guard, sweep, take mount, and generally control position much more quickly and fluidly than they. This has always seemed paradoxical to me, as we (myself and the 10th Planet community) often deride the traditional position-obsessed view of BJJ in the gi, while praising the pursuit of submission above all other goals. Against a gi player, it would make more sense if I lost position more often but landed more submissions.

In conclusion, I automatically respect anyone who trains, whether in corny skull-and-axe embossed tights or in poofy floppy Asian pajamas.

[Aiseop]

Thank you, Amir. Gild that post, folks!

[Nick Paul]

Yep, the Fertittas and Dana are all old boxing fans. Under their ownership (and more accurately under the Unified Rules), MMA has become increasingly a striking-centric game punctuated by an occasional takedown.

I also agree that street fights are not the real reason anyone keeps training any grappling sport for years and years.

We do it because it's "fun" in a broad sense of that word.

Matt Thornton gave an awesome lecture in Iceland once where he asked people in the seminar why they train. A lot of people said "self-defense". He disposed of that rationale by pointing out there was zero crime in Iceland. Eventually he told them that he believed people train because grappling sports are like a really powerful form of yoga in that the real purpose of yoga is to make you concentrate on one difficult thing so much that you empty your mind of all the other nagging details of life (at least for an hour or two) and this has a beneficial effect on you. This empty mindedness has various names. But whatever you call it, I think it is actually a big component of the "fun" my students are talking about when they describe why they train in grappling.

I completely agree with this. In a real self defense situation, having good fundamentals and control is what is going to keep you safe. You're not going to be going for a berimbolo if a guy is trying to kill you. The self defense effectiveness is what drew me into the sport and got me to start, now I've realized it goes waaaaaaay deeper than that. It's the ultimate form of meditation, it makes you look at any skill in life and think "yeah, I can learn that with enough practice and dedication". You look at everything with an open mind and small ego (like you're a white belt at whatever you're learning). It makes you more confident in the way you talk to people, and the way you carry yourself. It makes you pay more attention to the details in anything you do and think outside the box for another solution. You feel like there's nothing you can't learn, and nobody that can bully you around. Your ability to manage stress is improved drastically. It makes everything in life seem easier. That's what I've gotten out of jiu jitsu, it's not about learning how to kick somebody's ass or impress people. It's about developing yourself as a human being. Renzo Gracie once said "There's more philosophy on a jiu jitsu mat than in any Ivy League school in America" and I'm beginning to understand that.

[Neil Kiernan]

MMA is not self defense friendly either. Though it's closer then most competitions, relying on rules to protect your eyes, the back of your head, your groin, etc is not a street-friendly option.

[Brent Smith]

I agree gi training is better than no training. Other than that I dont see the point. Unless thats your thing..than good on you