mount vs half guard for mma

[Ross Davidson]

I like that summary, Mike. If I'm in bottom half though, my goal is to get out of it. It's not a great position for a fight, however, if you're good at getting out, it can be a great transitional phase for you. My game is centered around lockdown half. Everything I do depends on me having an excellent lockdown sweep/homie control/kimura control game from bottom half. However, if I'm going against someone who is good at jiu jitsu, bottom half can be a nightmare for me if I'm not 100% on my game and transitions. And that's kinda the idea, I guess. Most guys in mma don't spend too much time preparing to win from the bottom, in effective ways. There's such a high priority on wrestling that getting top position out of the gate is the only way a lot of people will grapple in mma. So when they inevitably get stuck on the bottom, there's not much they can do.

Oh yea, my guys I train with have killer half guards too, just based off of butterfly (super stomp). They are Marcelo guys after all

Turns out that the black belt at my gym is actually the guy credited for naming Z guard too. Stephen Kesting actually referred to him as the positions namer. Needless to say he's a z guard master, though he rarely uses it anymore.

[Mike Nall]

I like that summary, Mike. If I'm in bottom half though, my goal is to get out of it. It's not a great position for a fight, however, if you're good at getting out, it can be a great transitional phase for you. My game is centered around lockdown half. Everything I do depends on me having an excellent lockdown sweep/homie control/kimura control game from bottom half. However, if I'm going against someone who is good at jiu jitsu, bottom half can be a nightmare for me if I'm not 100% on my game and transitions. And that's kinda the idea, I guess. Most guys in mma don't spend too much time preparing to win from the bottom, in effective ways. There's such a high priority on wrestling that getting top position out of the gate is the only way a lot of people will grapple in mma. So when they inevitably get stuck on the bottom, there's not much they can do.

Oh yea, my guys I train with have killer half guards too, just based off of butterfly (super stomp). They are Marcelo guys after all

Turns out that the black belt at my gym is actually the guy credited for naming Z guard too. Stephen Kesting actually referred to him as the positions namer. Needless to say he's a z guard master, though he rarely uses it anymore.

That's awesome that you train with quality guys like that. I think that's a really solid post. I sort of side on the idea that getting to the top is the smart choice for MMA. I think there are great options from the bottom, but the sad reality about MMA judging as we all know is that you on bottom = losing to judges no matter what you're doing.

I did see that switch a bit in the Tony Ferguson/Danny Castillo fight. I hope it's a trend and not a fluke, but I guess the judges saw Tony's marces, leglocks, and striking from the bottom as being better than Castillo's wet blanket strategy. Contrast that with Diego Sanchez/Jon Fitch in 2007. I'd have to watch it again, but Diego threw up a lock of tight subs from the bottom and still lost the fight across the board in the decision.

I just think that if you want to try to sub from the bottom instead of sweep, you'd better actually do it. I don't think this is news to anyone. I'd like to see your strategy done more in MMA and I think it would be refreshing. You probably think the same b/c of the Marcelo guys you train with, but Joe Lauzon IMO has one of the best bottom games in MMA. get to butterfly and sweep to the top. He's so strong with that, and i think it's one of the better bottom strategies in the sport.

[Ross Davidson]

Yea that Ferguson fight was refreshing to witness. It still pissed me off hardcore when the fans booed and how Castillo showed such disrespect after the fight because of the decision.

[Mike Nall]

Yea that Ferguson fight was refreshing to witness. It still pissed me off hardcore when the fans booed and how Castillo showed such disrespect after the fight because of the decision.

I agree. Very awkward post fight interview.

I also think Ferguson would've finished most people. Castillo is almost impossible to choke. I remember Jacob Volkmann had him in like 6 or 7 darces and marces in their fight and he could never quite put Castillo away. One of the fighters backstage on that card was telling us that Tony Ferguson was doing some insane moves in the back before the fight. Real entertaining fighter.

[Chris Herzog]

Both are good for mma imo. Mount seems like it's better for ground and pound, whereas top half usually has more submission opportunities in my brief experience (D'arce, jnt, leg locks, gulliotines, etc). If I'm on top in a fight, I'm feeling pretty good, just so long as I can get out of full guard

Then you aren't rolling with 1/2 guard killers. You shouldn't be content there.

[Chris Herzog]

Top half limits their movements, and the general defense to sweeps is either strong sprawls with your free leg, or submission attempts. .

No it doesn't. And Strong sprawls form 1/2 guard end up getting you swept or giving them full guard. Against a good 1/2 guard you well be kept off balanced and constantly strugging to find it, discarding any sub attempts.

[Ross Davidson]

I don't feel content just being in top half at all. If there's no submission, I'm gonna pass. Definitely want to advance position as much as possible. And I assure you that I get swept into submissions and passes all the time by guys at my gym. However, keeping their head away from my hips by prying their head with my shoulder whole digging my whizzer in deep and sprawling my leg back has proven to be an effective defense. Actually, that defense helped me win a match a while back. Not saying it's an end all be all, and I'm not saying that top half is better than mount or whatever. They all have their uses, right? I just feel that when punches are introduced, the guy on the bottom is in a far worse position and should be desperate to get something going, whereas the guy on top, if he is successful in his defense, can focus more on breaking down the person in guard, and has opportunities that aren't always available from mount.

But I'm probably wrong. I am a lot. Only a blue belt, I know. But I just wanted to clarify my position.

[Chris Herzog]

Like I said, against 1/2 guard killers. Whizzer/sprawl will get you tore up in my gym and the rest of 10p schools with lockdown killers. Pulling it off in competition is irrelevant as we are talking about mma.

There is no comparison on threat level of bot 1/2 vs bot mount. Bot 1/2 is a high level threat,mount low at best. You can actually defend punches and use them to set up sweeps from 1/2 and submissions effectively. Again with the mount, low percentage at best.
Your argument is to have them do more work in half guard so the can do the samethings as if they were in mount. I disagree completely having more lower percentage options in top 1/2 is better than fewer higher percentage options from mount. You can punch hands free from mount. You cannot, without risk, punch freely with both hands from 1/2 guard.
With real punches being thrown, it wouldn't take long to change your mind.

[Greg W]

can't even believe this is even a discussion! My, how times change.

[Ross Davidson]

I actually was in a match against a 10p person using the lockdown when I used that defense to set up a Marcelotine, and I've since refined it a bit, but I can't debate ya coach. You're far above my pay grade. But this is just my limited experience.