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  1. #11

    Array

    School
    Grove City BJJ Academy
    Posts
    54
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Nall View Post
    Genuinely curious and trying to have an honest discussion. I can see how the inside sankaku/411 'could' be done while turning their knee inwards, but ideally it should turn their knee outwards. So if I have your right leg trapped, my left knee should be flaring outside and to the left, pointing your right knee outwards to your right/my left. Also, unless I'm reading you wrong, it sounds like for you the inside (inverted) heel hook isn't as strong a finish as the outside heel hook? I think the inside heel hook has a lot of advantages. The inside of the foot is longer and flat, and easier to catch in your armpit. The outside of the foot is shorter (heel to pinky toe is shorter than heel to big toe) and the foot slopes as it gets to the pinky toe. This can make digging for the outside heel hook more difficult and easier for the foot to slip.

    The rest of your post is solid and I agree with those points as well. The thing with the 50/50 is that it's a skill based position. It's a neutral position so whoever is better from there is going to win. This was fine when people didn't know the leg game as well as they do now. These days I think it's way more risky to go to the 50/50 for the reasons that you mentioned. It turns into way more of a shootout situation to see who is faster on the draw. The inside heel hook is great but I prefer the /inside sankaku/411 for the inside heel hook because I can keep all of my feet pretty safe.

    In my eyes the biggest advantage to the outside heel hook is that there's much more pain in the foot/ankle before the break travels to the knee. So your training partners have more time to tap. The inside heel hook pressure travels to the knee faster, and I'd make a strong case that it's the most powerful joint lock in the whole game.

    Thanks for the reply man! Yeah, I was actually thinking of the tradition reaping position with the foot isolated on the outside as opposed to the inside which is the more accurate description of 411/Inside Sankaku. I guess even still with that you would be able to flare the knee to the outside and perhaps I'm doing it wrong (Still a white belt after all), because as I think about it, you're probably right even with the reap position as I could flare his knee outward to create that tension (I think the issue I'm having is that I switch to my inside hip to triangle my legs, but I need to switch back to my outside hip to turn the knee outward). Admittedly it's not my go-to or favorite position for attacking as I prefer to maintain the flexibility to bail on the leglock and pass the guard if things aren't going as well, and (to my pathetic whitebelt) knowledge, it's not as easy to bail from a reap.

    The inside heel hook is definitely a stronger finish. I prefer the outside for two reasons, the main one being that I'm deathly afraid of hurting a training partner, even if on accident, and the inside heel hook has a smaller margin of error, so I really will only go for it on the training partners I feel most comfortable with. The other reason is that I prefer to have the foot isolated so they can't use their other foot to try and disrupt the heel hook attempt. Granted there are options and ways to prevent it, I just haven't used them much because I'm apprehensive about the risk of injury.

    50/50 was my jam when I first started as I had bought Ryan Hall's DVD series before I actually ever bought a gi, but as I've learned and advanced in leg locks, I've realized that there are better ways to attack a leg without putting your own feet in harm's way because people have caught up. However, a couple guys are starting to use the Hayden 80/20 system, I've never used it, do you have any thoughts on it?

  2. #12

    Array

    School
    The Submission Academy
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    4
    I'm no leg lock expert, but I do like using Outside Ashi for 2 reasons:

    A) Finishing the submission (straight ankle lock or outside heel hook) - When you stomp both of your legs on your opponent's hips, it is more difficult for your opponent to roll or counter. You can also generate more torque in your hips.

    B) If the submission fails, I like transitioning to Captain Morgan to set up the knee bar or go back to Inside Senkaku for the inside heel hook finish. Or as other people mentioned, you can transition to 50/50 and finish with the inside heel hook.

    Marvin Castelle posted a cool video showing a nice outside Ashi setup and transition a few days ago. Check it out! https://www.instagram.com/da_cerberus/

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie Carter View Post

    50/50 was my jam when I first started as I had bought Ryan Hall's DVD series before I actually ever bought a gi, but as I've learned and advanced in leg locks, I've realized that there are better ways to attack a leg without putting your own feet in harm's way because people have caught up. However, a couple guys are starting to use the Hayden 80/20 system, I've never used it, do you have any thoughts on it?
    I'll reply to the rest soon but it's cool that you've been around that long. Yeah great dvd. The 5050 also made more sense back then because people were still doing the finish where they twist the heel across their chest and rotate/gator roll to finish instead of bridging into the side of the knee. So the 5050 position made it easier to slow their their twist while you could twist faster. Now that there's a better way to finish the heel hook, Ryan Hall is way heavier into the 411 and outside ashi style positions than he is the 5050.

    It's funny because on that dvd he goes to the 411 a lot and then transitions to the 5050 from there. And that's not a transition you'd really see anymore.

    The 80/20 is probably the best way to attack if you do go into the 5050 by choice or end up there by accident. I think it''s worth looking into but not as good as the 4-11 and outside ashi positions.

  4. #14

    Array

    School
    Grove City BJJ Academy
    Posts
    54
    Oh no man, I haven't been around that long, just 2 years doing jiu jitsu; I just got into BJJ because of my NCOIC and he recommended Ryan Hall to me, and I had watched some videos of EBI and knew that leg locks were a big deal and then my first class actually happened to be on straight ankle locks so I just kind dove into the dark side. I'd heard of Ryan Hall and how great his instructional dvds were so I bought the 50/50 set off EBAY for like 30-40 bucks. I thought I was going to be this killer armed with a 50/50 game, and that just wasn't the case, lol. Luckily, I fell into a mentor/mentee role with one of our Brown Belts who has been studying leg locks extensively and I go to a pretty open minded gym so I've been studying leg locks since literally day one. I still feel like I have a lot to learn, but I'm an avid student of the game, I try to buy any and every instructional I can on legs from Hall to Bodycomb and even Kesting's new modern leg lock formula. I feel like I have a solid leg lock game and I've caught some higher belts in training (but to be fair, it's training, they'd kill me in competition) and have helped several with their understanding of different aspects. So I try to help when I can, but like to throw in the disclaimer that I'm no expert, I'm still learning. I feel like I understand the concepts and can help someone out, but I'm always willing to be corrected.

  5. #15

    Array

    School
    Ronin
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    383
    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie Carter View Post
    However, a couple guys are starting to use the Hayden 80/20 system, I've never used it, do you have any thoughts on it?
    I found the 80/20 stuff to be a very useful addition to my leg game.

  6. #16

    Array

    School
    Alchemy Jiu-Jitsu/ Marcelo Garcia NYC
    Posts
    5
    If you have a hard time with them coming up with the smash, try figure fouring so your shin lays across their hip. Its one of the only ways i found to shield the guy, while also having an anchor point to finish the heel hook. The only down side i found is people try to attack your top leg, but is easily defended by grabbing your own shin!

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