My Hypothesis of the decline of BJJ in MMA

Alright guys... I just want to preface this post with the fact that I have never stepped inside a cage and I'm just your standard blue belt. I am however an avid fan of Mixed Martial Arts and have been watching ever since I was 15 (so nearly 10 years now). I have gotten to train with many great instructors and I can see the answer as to why Jiu Jitsu is declining in MMA.

First off, there is a famous quote "Hit a black belt once, he's a brown... hit him again and he's a purple." (or something close to that) Why is that? The Answer.... MOST SCHOOLS DON'T ROLL WITH PUNCHES. I feel that if you are training for MMA/Combat Jiu Jitsu and you are going to be in a position where people can hit you on the ground.... you should probably be rolling with punches.

What happened with Roger Gracie and Tim Kennedy was a perfect example of this... we saw Roger Gracie (arguably the Heavy Weight King of BJJ) getting thrashed by a BJJ Blue Belt... BECAUSE OF PUNCHES!

I know that Keith Owen's school (since they are very self defense oriented) have one day a week where they roll with strikes.... what are your thoughts?

Good idea, we roll with punches at least once a week. Then again, we are an mma-school, so that's obvious :p
It's certainly a totally different game with punches. Positioning and sweeps become more important. Mount and side control are huge.
There's also another side to rolling with punches. When you punch, you often sacrifice balance and control. When someone tries to punch you, that's often the time to break his posture, whip up, ...

agree, thats why im going try and jiu jitsu's renaissance man in MMA, will probably get done before I can before i get around to making waves, but its a good goal to have.

I agree to an extent. I think it is really important to test your jiu jitsu with strikes from time to time to make sure there aren't any unrealistic tenancies. For example, I saw Eddie talk about Z guard in MMA recently. It isn't so much of a gi vs. no-gi issue with Z guard; the problem is you are exposed to strikes.
IMO, there is another reason why BJJ has declined in MMA. In the beginning (1993ish), BJJ only had to be good enough to beat people who didn't know the first thing about BJJ. Because BJJ techniques were so esoteric, a BJJ fighter did not have to be air tight in order to get a submission. Now, basic BJJ techniques are common knowledge. In the UFC, it seems like everyone knows how to posture out of stuff, t-rex there arms etc. Instead of admitting that BJJ is in need of innovation (and obviously there are some really key exceptions to this claim), many people in BJJ have refused to change. Some people think that BJJ needs to be more traditional and even closer to its original roots. I think the opposite is true.
Imo what is slowing innovation in BJJ is the gi. When you utilize sleeve control and collar control, you don't have to develop the proper control for an MMA fight. Without the proper control, your opponent has more space and is able to posture out of things.

On a different note, I think there is a bit of social darwinism taking place in BJJ. Look at wrestling, a grappling art that has been holding competitions for at least 2500 years. I can't imagine a world champion wrestler who wasn't a phenomenal athlete. I think the same will be true of BJJ one day. But, right now it seems like you can be still be great in BJJ without being an Olympic level athlete. For example, I think Roger Gracies losses have been less about his level of BJJ, and more about his level of explosiveness/athleticism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rickdawson

Alright guys... I just want to preface this post with the fact that I have never stepped inside a cage and I'm just your standard blue belt. I am however an avid fan of Mixed Martial Arts and have been watching ever since I was 15 (so nearly 10 years now). I have gotten to train with many great instructors and I can see the answer as to why Jiu Jitsu is declining in MMA.

First off, there is a famous quote "Hit a black belt once, he's a brown... hit him again and he's a purple." (or something close to that) Why is that? The Answer.... MOST SCHOOLS DON'T ROLL WITH PUNCHES. I feel that if you are training for MMA/Combat Jiu Jitsu and you are going to be in a position where people can hit you on the ground.... you should probably be rolling with punches.

What happened with Roger Gracie and Tim Kennedy was a perfect example of this... we saw Roger Gracie (arguably the Heavy Weight King of BJJ) getting thrashed by a BJJ Blue Belt... BECAUSE OF PUNCHES!

I know that Keith Owen's school (since they are very self defense oriented) have one day a week where they roll with strikes.... what are your thoughts?

---

Totally agree, things change in a flash when those bombs start landing. Also think how much things would change in a street fight. I wouldn't want to hang in say mission control or north/south with someone with sharp teeth in a one on one street fight.

There are multiple factors but that is a big one. I like what Brogan says. Rolling with the GI improves defense because its harder to slip out of subs. But the GI can give guys an inflated sense of confidence because its harder to land subs in the GI.

IMO, the GI is also a big contributor to the decline of bjj in mma.

Also close more mindedness. Its like strikers learned to deal with grapplers. Wrestlers learned to deal with strikers and bjj players. But bjj players havent figured out how to deal with counter grapplers. Even worse, too many bjj guys either try to become strikers, or they don't properly prepare for counter grapplers.

These are my 2 cents.

I assumed most mma gyms do roll with strikes. Surprised thats not the case.

I was more excited to watch the Roger Gracie fight than the main event. I thought I was gonna witness an amazing grappling performance. What I got was one of the worlds best grapplers looking like a noob

i agree and disagree at the same time here, i think that yes there are a bunch of bjj fighters who are coming into mma cos they are awesome submission artists in the gi etc and thinknig it translates without any adaptation. but then on the other hand i think we have to look at it in a positive light as well. the last ufc in brasil. how many submissions were there 8? 9? there are some crazy good submission artists coming out as well. i think we are only just starting tos ee how good jiu jitsu is in mma. seeing those guys who train mma jiu jitsu or no gi jiu jitsu with their wrestling and stand up from a young age.

the thing ive noticed in the bjj guys who come from fighting in the gi is that they work a lot more on position and getting the right control over a guy and then striking with a sub, but when you look at what is working in maa its about using paths and throwing up sub combos. thats why i love tpjj becuase so much of it flows together. gogoplata to omaplata to sweep to americana to spiderweb to arm crusher to armbar for example.

i think the other way people are looking at it wrong is thinking that its the wrestlers and strikers who are getting bjj and the bjj guys are doing nothing. demian maia for example. his striking is average but he worked on it and now hes back to his roots and kills people. and going back to my first point look at how maia fights. against rick story he was like water flowing around rick and went for a RNC and wasnt workign well enough so he switched to a neck crank.

most of my training atm is building up my paths and linking them together so whereever i am on the ground i can throw something at them.

as far as punches go. i reckon if u do mma, you get punched whereever you go.