I'm a former football player so I may be a little bias in this regard but I am wondering how vital strength and conditioning is to you and your game? Or do you value it at all?
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I'm a former football player so I may be a little bias in this regard but I am wondering how vital strength and conditioning is to you and your game? Or do you value it at all?
Conditioning is a huge part of why I got into 10PJJ. The warmups and exercises before we get into techniques is the only reason I got started. Now that I am totally addicted to 10PJJ, I still think our warmups need to be conditioning based. Some guys at our club think it's silly to do squats and that kind of thing during the warm up, but imo the harder you can push your body and make it work, even with motions that are not necessarily JJ related, the more ready your body will be for anything.
Also look at it this way - I quit smoking May 30th because my heart went into ventricular fibrillation during JJ when someone put a blood choke on me. Since then I have been taking our warmups super-serious, and jogging as much as I can motivate myself to. Now after only four months of not smoking, I have been outlasting guys (cardio wise) that have never smoked before.
Conditioning is huge.
I definitely agree. I do alot of strongman training and it helps me be able to roll and spar with the pro guys and not gas out while being the biggest guy in the gym. Plus it's taking the weight off while keeping me strong.
My opinion is that classtime is for technique, drilling, and rolling. Warmups and cooldowns are important (to prevent injuries) but I also don't think spending 15-20 min doing burpees jumping jacks etc is what I paid for, I go to class personally for jiu jitsui/wrestlling and feel conditioning is strength is the student's responsibility out of class.
That's just my take-again not a doctor but I did stay at a holiday inn :-)
If you want to compete seriously these days(BJJ or MMA) you need that strength and conditioning element in your game. I compete for fun and knowledge, and I don't think I would learn BJJ faster if I was fit and strong. I would just win more, not learn more. I am in great shape for an old 150 lb skinny white boy that has never strength trained a day in his life. I can roll non stop for an hour with people much bigger and stronger than me. If I get tired and stop rolling then I ain't learning. So just rollin' lots keeps me in good enough condition for my current goals. Getting big strong guys to stop using muscle when rolling so they can learn is always a challenge for me vs skinny weak guys that have no choice but to work the technique. This might be a small advantage to training gi. (please don't start gi/no-gi debate) A larger guy can't just bench press me off side control with a gi since I have "handles". Since he can't just muscle out, he is forced to use proper side control escapes to gain position. BUT, a strong fit guy that has learned and uses proper techniques is a very scary individual!!! I have teamates that say they are not using strength against me, and they are not, until I am just about to seal the deal, then I feel the body tense up and just explode with every bit of muscle they can muster, just so they don't have to tap. This is before they even attempt the proper technique that I know they know. I often pause and give them the chance for proper escape, that they don't even attempt before going berserk. They are helping me with my street fight ability, because big strong people in a street fight will use it, so I get better at clinch control, thanks. But they are not getting better at BJJ by going berserk. I always type so dam much, sorry, I stayed at a Holiday Inn EXPRESS last night!!!!
I stick to kettle bell, and heavy rope workouts at home. Class warm ups I like to just very lightly warm up with running and squats etc. Most of the warm up is guard passing drills, closed, open, etc.
Conditioning is important, not as important as technique but what's the point of having good technique if you gas in the first minute? And what's the point of being strong if you never use strength?
So of course both are important factors. Not as important as technique but not to be overlooked either.
I've done strength training for 10 yrs now, personally I am at a point where I feel I don't think there's a lot to gain from focusing on increasing strength. As long as I am training hard on the mat I don't seem to lose any strength, in fact just upping my mat time is making me stronger it seems. I don't spend any time lifting weights even though I have a fight in 7 weeks. I used to spend a lot of time increasing functional strength but that was when I was a novice in the sport and needed to supplement my mma training. After having a long hard look at it the benefits of being fresh for my real training outweigh whatever strength gains I would see from doing more weights. Plus I stopped enjoying weights when I got good st jiu jitsu.
I have a very lengthy opinion on this subject that I will spare you.
It boils down to, I only cross train or use any resistance other than body weight(mine&opponents) unless I'm injured.
If I am healthy, I get my strength and conditioning from jj. And lots of it. Superior to anything from a gym or any workout that isn't specific movements of or within the act itself. imo
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
Feel free to share man.
It sounds on the money to me Bobby. It annoys me when people are over critical of each others workouts. The Nibiru forum is definitely more open minded than that. Its so important to acknowledge that we are all different and have different goals and lifestyles and that different things are gonna benefit certain people more so than others. We are all one, but we are still all rather unique.
Its all relative to the individual, different components of fitness will help different styles of fighting and body types. Making flexibility gains for some may be the missing piece to the puzzle and open up a whole new game in TDD and BJJ. Vice versa I would imagine an athlete who struggles with basic strength exercises and is relatively weak for their size would benefit with basic compound lifts for a certain amount of time and thus the carry over effect for them would be massive also.
IMO it is huge for my comp team. This is also the reason my competitors do not pay for Crossfit training. I offer it to my guys for free to help give them the best opportunity for success in comps other than techs.
Do you think Eddie Bravo, Marcelo Garcia, and Helio Gracie (back in his day) do squats and bench press after every training session and that's how they are dominating guys? If you're using strength in your jiu jitsu technique you're doing something wrong. Cardio however, is important for obvious reasons.
If I were in a tournament I'd much rather be in a 170 lbs division lean with great cardio than a 190 division being much stronger with reduced cardio and competing with guys much bigger. Not to mention the weaker you are, you are forced to develop perfect technique against stronger opponents.
Word!
I know stacks of people who are expert exercisers, who spend more time in the gym lifting, than on the mat rolling and drilling. Funny thing is, they got into the lifting because of the need to get fitter for JJ, and now they dedicate more time to cardio than JJ. What a mistake! Nothing beats Jits for
Jits!!!
Theres nothing better for cardio/strength and agility period for jiu jitsu, than jiu jitsu.
Yeah conditioning is a huge part of the over all picture, but that is one of the fringe benefits of actually training properly and rolling at the right amount each night. IF you have a shitty work schedule etc..., then I understand cross training most definitely. But if you want to be the best you can be at JJ, and you're choosing to lift instead for your conditioning to better your jits??...........then watch out for the little blue belt guy, who you used to steam roll with awesome cardio, now, kick your technically lack luster, confused ass!
Next time you guys set your clock to roll for an hour made up of 7 minute rounds, and you will see all the gym junkies sitting against the wall and the Jiu Jitsu geeks still pushing right to the end of the last round. Believe me, I see it all the time.
remember.........The best thing to improve your Jiu Jitsu is Jiu Jitsu, period and tonnes of it! Bobby I apologise for almost repeating exactly what you are saying but I just couldn't resist the temptation!
:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
Who says you have to suffer reduced cardio just because you are bigger? Why not have both?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hamilton
Speaking for myself, I can say that I would have never stayed in JJ if the warmups were not intense conditioning.
There are other students in our class who feel the opposite, more like HerbChao's post #4.
You mean if youre RELYING on strength you're doing something wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hamilton
You must use some strength. Leverage without zero effort applied does nothing.
Of course you can overcome a strength deficit by using leverage (technique) but with all things being equal the one able to apply more effort (strength) will succeed every time.
Attachment 1610
This was exactly my lengthy opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK BARCA
Strong opinions on both sides. There will always be anomalies on both sides that scue the scales so I personally wouldn't bank my case on that but that's why I asked what it means to YOU. Keep it coming
Until you learn to move in the right direction at the right time, how fast or hard you can push, pull, or explode means nothing. This is not an opinion. When your technique is perfect, then attributes come in to play. Until then they are nullified by leverage and timing as Chris stated.
Not tryin to be abrasive. Is what it is.
I agree with this, but its tough to tell this to an instructor without sounding like a bitch/lazy. I know in my boxing class, when we're doing a ton of callisthenics at the end of class, I purposefully drag ass a bit so that I don't blow myself out for the next day's heavy lifting session. I've gotten called out on it before by my instructor though, and its annoying and embarrassing. What have you guys done in similar situations?Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbChao
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
So once you learn those things added strength isn't beneficial to you?
No. Strength is an attribute.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
This is a tough one to really put into words as I can only really base any experience of mine up until the level I am at, which is far away from mastering it.
You have skill level, and you have physical attributes. The beauty of jiu jitsu is that it relies heavily on both.
For me at least the idea of the game is to continually increase skill level (which is done in various ways) and ensure your physical condition is able to allow you to perform the techniques you have learnt, with an amount of precision, over a sustained period of time.
This encompasses everything you should need to eventually master it.
Your job as the jiu jitsu player is to then make all the decisions on how to best spend your training sessions. Then when you compete your performance is a reflection of your training.
Somewhere between the extremes of you don't need any strength and you only need strength and nothing else lies the only certainty for everybody. I would imagine for most of us we conciously gear our training toward the former end of the scale but even within that there is giant scope for variety!
Eddie does do squats, not sure about bench. Marcelo says he doesn't nor did Helio, but many other Dominating JJ players incorporate some sort or S&C. For anyone that watched Metamoris would see a common theme. Most incorporate to supplement but their main focus is JJ. But if people still believe that bench and similar "body Building" training is beneficial then they are mistaken. The program we focus on is core/mid-line stabilization, posterior chain engagement, and high intensity output, all things that help jj practitioners. Crazy amounts of time spent on technique is invaluable and should also be a tenant of training. The real question is who are we preaching to, the person who does jj for fun and to get in shape, the weekend warrior, or a seasoned competitor that is training to attain the status of world champion. These factors need to be in place before we could really answer this broad question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hamilton
Wait so eating Just Fruits and Vegetables isn't enough...
I don't compete often, and I'm not cutting weight or changing up my life or training schedule when I do, so I have a very different view on the issue of S&C than some one who is more competition focused.
For me, it all comes down to being healthier, better equipped (both mentally and physically) to enjoy and thrive in life. So, strength and conditioning work is hugely important to me. I work out 6 times a week, and roll with the local club 3-4 times a week (usually right after a lifting session in place of the conditioning segment).
I would no more give up lifting big weights than I would my mat time or range time. These are not competition tools to me, but integral parts of my life.
I'm 27 years into my martial arts journey and 37 years into my life journey, and even though the two started at different times, I don't plan to end one until the other one is done.
Plus, as Jim Wendler says: "Stronger people are harder to kill." :cool:
Love it, This is a healthy lifestyle and stronger people are harder to kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike May
Carahlo John Meija, you know all jiu need is the Fruits and Vegetals.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mejia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike May
The quote from Wendler sums it up nicely.
Are they? To who? If strength is hard for you to overcome or cause a failure in tech then it was your tech that failed, or it was his tech behind his strength that succeeded.
The the decline bench is a good example here. It is a very powerful compound movement that can be useful as fuck in jj. You can press your way out of mount or side. It can be very frustrating to one who lacks the tech to deal with such an attribute. They just chalk it up to "Godam you're strong." If you just push back against his line of direction, even with you're entire bodyweight, you will fail. Because many can press twice that.
But what if, while he was executing the decline press, you turned it into an incline mid rep? Or a barbell incline into flat dumbbell flies? What if you started flipping the dumbbells 45% over and over again and changing the angle mid rep? Eventually your just a strong guy with your arms extended and a dumbbell in a very bad position.
Im not currently enrolled in a BJJ school but do go to a Kickboxing school and I love the workout with the added squats, rope work, situps, pushups, pullups. I find that it is usually enough for me as I don't compete in any way currently.
"The Goal is to keep the goal the goal" -Dan John. Are you a lifter who grapples or a grappler who lifts? What is your focus/priority?
I say: % of time spent 80-90% Jitsu, 10%20-% S&C focus on 1RM (repetition max) strength. Aim for 2xBodyweight DeadLift (and/or 2xBW Squat), 1xBW Military Press (or if you are one of those guys 1.5x BW Bench-Press).
If technique are on par with your opponent (or his/hers on yours) then your physical ability will often determine who wins.
"Being strong is not enough, you have to be strong enough!"
Sorry forgot: You should get most of the conditioning you need for your sport from your sport.
Here is a video for your viewing pleasure. This can for sure help your athletic performance while doing jjhttp://youtu.be/sU5qYSObutU
i only really train entire body movements such as kettlebell turkish get ups and running outside of training actual JJ, i think jui jitsu uses your body as a whole and so the conditioning should mirror it
There is no doubt that was super impressive Josh. And yeah only the insanely good would not just get mauled by that kind of power and endurance.
Just not my flavor. Too mundane. Intense as fuck! But boring. Plus all that energy expended, and although much is gained. What is learned?
Ive been vocal about my favorite way to crosstrain since I joined this forum. Now FreakShow came along and validated it. I know for a fact it was the key factor in my success and has accelerated my progression in jj exponentially. Bboy Atn has a style similar to mine(he's waaay better more powerful in his tech) when I just feel like body movin or s&c.https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1QV7ia8XvJw
im with bobby on that. crossfit is cool. i just get so bored with the same mundane things. surfing really helps me. its fun and its an unbelievable workout. i can honestly say my clinch wouldnt be half what it is without surfing.
My strength training is HUGE to me. I started up hard last year and it's made a MONSTER difference. Anyone trying to make a living with jiu jitsu MUST ad a strength training program to their weekly training routine. Unless you train jiu jitsu 6 times a week twice a day like Marcelo, it's gonna be a long dark journey if you don't take your strength seriously. I wouldn't have done what I did in ADCC without the strength training I went thru :)
Sure as shit got the job done. Along with a ridiculously limber, creative, unorthodox, technically sound game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo
I think it's agreed that s&c is needed. The arguments lie in how and to what extent.
Eddie, would you not agree that pound for pound, Geo is as strong and conditioned as they come?