Has anyone actually focused so much time on one technique to actually drill it 10,000 times? If so what technique, how long did it take you and how did you log your reps? Eddie do you think you have done 10,000 reps of the basic path?
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Has anyone actually focused so much time on one technique to actually drill it 10,000 times? If so what technique, how long did it take you and how did you log your reps? Eddie do you think you have done 10,000 reps of the basic path?
Armdrag-trip-cradle side, lockdown-boa-dogfight, fullguard- posture break-shoulder trap-toss-spider web, cradle side-back widow, twister side-mount- ear'n armpit sky dive- chopping block. Swim moves. Dlr- back. Spiral-back. Leg drags. Marcello series. Collar tie(standing)-russian tie. Truck from turtle-3 entries. Top half-twister smash pass. Lockdown-prisonguard-back/armbar. And probly several more.
Micheal Jordan never stopped shooting freethrows and Ali was throwin jabs at the end of his career. (Insert Bruce Lee quote)..
damn bobby i got to step it up
I fear not the man who has practiced 1 kick 10,000 times, but I fear the man who has practiced 30 kicks 10,000 times :)
I was actually thinking about this the other day. So if i took an average of 3 classes per week times 52 weeks in a year times 8.5 years of jitz thats right around 1300 classes. So even if i only did one rep of one move (say armbar) each class thats 1300 reps of that move alone. So i know i damn well have 10000 reps of something!! Most likely lockdown an Electric Chair series or any footlock...lol.
I think with bjj/grappling that means develop your game, don't focus on learning every technique. Find a game and perfect it. That doesn't mean you can't incorporate some different/new stuff, but get your main game plan down.
I heard on a podcast a while back when the person trained they obeyed a 70-20-10 rule (i think that was the breakdown). 70% of the time you work your core game, 20% of your training you work in stuff you have been really developing, and the other 10% of your training you try some shit and see what happ
Good thread.
Personally I am still working on the basics. My go to moves are the Darce/JNT/PNT/Anaconda but I know I haven't even hit 100 of them yet, so I am way off. (Talking about tolling though, not repping)
In my mind
Shit man....I'm trying with the 1/4 guard to mini stomp, to dogfight, to deep half series. No better feeling than to make something out of nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
Im confused, so are you saying you've done all these tech's 10,000 times?? And if yes that means you've kept track and number each rep or are you just makin a guest. Makin a guest doesnt count. I just started keeping track and numbering each rep only focusing on a few tech's so i dont get overwhelmed. Leg drags, and Triangles for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
I doubt a lot of people have gotten the actual 10,000. They may feel they have, but that's a lot more than most realize. I mean it's obviously not impossible,but that is a lot of time spent drilling one tech. I'm pretty sure I only have a few. Maybe the arm crush. There aren't many I could say I've positively done 10,000 times.
I have not gotten 10,000. But before I'm done, those will be the techs I probably reach first. I don't keep track, so ill never know. I have no problem drilling these a couple times a week every week.
I love the idea of repping something so much. I'm tempted to pick a technique to do it with.
The warm up series is probably what most people will will have hit 10000 first
That being said Ive definitely shrimped and bridged over 10,000 times.
while still not probably 10,000 times, The technigue I learned on first day of class was elbow escape from mount. After more than 10 years of that being my goto mount escape, teaching it and having it part of my warmup series for a while, I must be real close. I have been working hard on old school sweep from lockdown since 2004. Must be well in the 5000 reps of that, I use it every night multiple times. Sometimes close to 10 times per night. My latest project in the North south choke. I have dedicated 2 solid years of going for it every single time I get to side control. Has to be well on the way to hitting 10,000 in 8 more years If I stick with it.
8 years you're going to hard a Marcelo N/S choke!Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg W
Unfortuneatly I dont believe I have gotten close to 10,000 reps. But I have the rest of my life to do so.
When our gym first started exploring the 10,000 rep idea Brandon stuck a few of us on it. He assigned each of us certain areas in our game that had holes, gave us 3ish techniques from there and gave us a deadline. I got 3,000 reps on passing the lockdown and passing open guard in about 4 months. I had 1,000 reps on the no hands, twister, and step back pass from top half and also 1,000 of each of the M series. In total 6,000 passing reps. Once that was done I was able to pass with ease in live sparring with anyone my experience or lower. 10,000 is out goal, but 10,000 dead reps (especially on only 1 technique) seems like complete overkill and 1 technique in isolation doesn't really make sense so you lose the context of it. We have found that doing around 2,000 to 3,000 dead reps is enough to start hitting it live and from there eventually you will hit 10,000 if you do it regularly while rolling. We also try to rep an idea or a principle not necessarily 1 technique. For example, passing in general is an idea so learning 1 pass an doing it 10,000 times doesn't necessarily teach you the principles behind passing even if it does give you 1 unstoppable pass.
My favorite way to drill right now is sequencing. I take techniques I know I can already do and I make them seamless in transition. Ive been on an x guard kick so ive been drilling entering x guard to the sweep to the pass to the top position to the back to the finish all as on rep.
I personally haven't played with the idea of doing that many reps too extensively. I usually take a position, 2 submissions, and maybe 2 escapes and I get there and use them in every roll for two or three months. That's how I develop and try to get in as many reps as possible. I also watch a lot of videos. Take mental notes on them and rewatch the same move over and over. That helps me when I roll. It's like getting twice the reps.
It takes you 2000-3000 dead reps before you are able to hit something live?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Davis
Eddie Bravo has said several times that the number of reps you need to master a technique differs from person to person, from move to move. One person may need only 5,000 reps, another may need 20,000.
The popularity of the 10,000 reps benchmark is due a large part, I believe, to Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers. Gladwell suggested that to become an expert at something, a person needs to put in a least 10,000 reps. He gives Michael Jordan, the Beetles, and Bill Gates, among others, as examples of people who put the reps in and became legends in their respective fields. The idea is essentially that everyone owes their success to the hard work they put in, with an additional boost to success that comes from being in the right place and time that allows a person to put those reps in. For instance, Gates was able to start working with the Internet when he was in high school because he was fortunate enough to be going to one of the only high schools in America that had access to the Internet back then. Clearly, that gave him an advantage moving forward.
To a large extent, the idea is weak. Gladwell was essentially rehashing the nature versus nurture argument without even mentioning that was what he was doing. Nature vs. nurture in this sense relates to talent versus skill. The nature side of the argument holds that some people are born with a gift to perform certain activities (thus, the validity of Eddie's statement that the number of moves a person needs varies from person to person. Some people have a knack for a move, some don't). The nurture side of the argument holds that we are all born equal and we develop according to how we have improved ourselves (our education, training - the reps we put in). Gladwell argues that if you put 10,000 hours into performing with your band like the Beetles did, you could become superstars musicians. Paul McCartney noted that the Beetles were hardly the only band the put 10,000 hours in - but most of the other bands faded away. So if the Beetles did not have talent (nature), the hard work (nurture) would not have paid off as well.
Now as the 10,000 mark applies to jiu-jitsu, more reps helps everything although I agree with Eddie about the number of reps it takes varying from person to person. Brent Littell used to concentrate on one move that he was working on all night, say guillotines. He'd even tell the people he was sparring with that it was going to be guillotines all night. Then he'd go for it. It didn't matter if he had another opportunity, he was only going for the guillotine.
I've followed Brent's example with guillotines and ankle locks. Those are my best moves needless to say. I estimate that I was easily attempting 60 ankle locks a week while rolling (two on each foot, per partner - after that their ankles are just sore and they tap to anything) and another 40 a week sharing my technique with others. At that rate, 10,000 reps take over two years. This is a very conservative estimate of how many ankle locks I attempted during that time. For one thing, it took me a while to realize that anything more than two ankle locks per leg per partner was just me being an asshole. However, those are also moves that I have a "knack" for; I tapped out more than one brown belt with my ankle lock while I was blue belt.
Some very good points. A lot of the techniques that are done you can chain other options off of it. So maybe 10,000 reps should be put into a particular position instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Davis
I think there are different types of reps that you can be doing:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Davis
a. Dead Reps - Against a compliant opponent. You're basically just looking to get the idea of something you don't really understand that well.
b. Resistance Reps - You're resisting me, but you're giving me a programmed reaction. This helps me to understand timing and sensitivity. If I'm forced to "muscle" through your resistance, I don't have it yet. It's super important to have a good partner for this so that it doesn't turn into a rolling session or a match. I recommend using someone who also wants to get some numbers in so that they understand the necessity of proper resistance. You will also find during these sessions that Technique A begets Technique B when it is negated. In other words, if you shut down A, you open up B.
c. Rolling Reps - You hit it during rolling. The best way to do this and get lots of numbers in is to simply ask your partner "Can we start from (insert position)?" After a while, I find that the path ways to my drilled positions begin to develop themselves. The "A begets B" idea really starts to manifest itself here.
d. Visual/Mental Reps - Watching a video that fleshes out an idea, position, or technique; or meditating/dwelling on an idea, position, or technique. Preferably, you're working on an idea or philosophy rather than a particular technique. I feel like, for me personally, this is much more valuable. I think that (provided you actually you get on the mat and give it some physical repetition) a visual/mental rep is worth maybe 1/5 of a real rep. Having said that, physical reps need the meditation, as well in order to mature completely. If Jiu Jitsu is a living breathing, constantly adapting organism then it needs the same spiritual, physical, and mental development that a human does in order to grow to full maturity.
Having said all that, we have 2 hours of each day (Monday-Thursday, 4-6pm) set aside for drilling ONLY. No rolling. No goofing off. Get in, and put in the numbers. Have a goal and a plan to achieve that goal. Get it done.
I think by "hitting it" he means "wearing folks out with it." :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Brick
Great post, Scott.Quote:
Originally Posted by scottross
In reality, there is no "Nature VERSUS Nurture." There is only "Nature AND Nurture."
With Jiu Jitsu being such a physical art, we will have have a natural proclivity towards certain techniques. Beyond that, we will all have a natural proclivity towards certain styles. A man with one leg isn't going to specialize in The Twister. Eddie was always naturally flexible (though he works diligently at staying flexible and becoming even more so), so the Rubber Guard was nurtured from his nature.
While it is true that plenty of bands have put in the 10,000 hours and not succeeded commercially, I think it's important to note that all of those bands were certainly very excellent performers and musicians. There is more at play in that particular example. In music, you are counting on people enjoying what you put out. It's a very subjective thing. Also, consider how much time these different individuals invested in crafting the art of actually writing a song. That's a skill completely separate from the playing of an instrument itself. It was the songwriting that made the Beatles great. It's why Paul and John were wildly successful on their own and Ringo and George had (at best) moderate success (most of which was riding on the coat tails of simply being a Beatle).
Also, it should be noted that Gladwell described 10,000 hours of dedicated practice; not 10,000 repetitions. 10,000 hours is a LOT. You can't put in 10,000 dedicated hours in anything and not become an "expert." You may not be the greatest ever, but you will certainly rise into the upper echelon of your chosen endeavor.
Also I think Sam takes into account who he catches. For example, white belts who dive into triangles. That's a rep, but do you count it as a legit 'live' rep? I don't trust or count a tech, till I hit it on someone who knows how to stop me from getting what I want. And get it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
Depending on the amount of defense my training partners have developed to it already yes. I have to get the feel of the technique then as I get better at it the dead reps become more and more live, and increasingly adding attributes into the equation as well. By about 3000 reps on an idea or a technique I have enough experience with it to have good success with it while rolling and then is when the real learning begins. When your training partner is determined to shut down what you are working on (usually because my drilling partners are my rolling partners) then you need to have a good understanding to consistently hit it while rolling, I think. For instance one of the blue belts at our gym named Matt Skaff is my main drilling partner, so when I started learning x guard he learned 3 passes to x guard in the next week. Because I only had about 400 reps on x guard, now we go about half and half when we get to x guard during rolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Brick
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
It's still reps either way. You have to dissect what's really going on and learn from every rep. If I'm hitting it on a white belt I'm obviously not getting a great rep on the set up, but I can work on practicing the finish more efficiently. It's like repping triangles. Lets say he "dives" into it. I didn't a legit rep on my set up, but I definitely got a good rep on the finish. I will still learn something about the triangle. It's still a legit rep.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
I said it was a rep.
Coaching is whats gonna ultimately bring you closest to this number. Not only drilling it for yourself, but for others to truly grasp it as well. If you teach 6 different people lockdown, 6 different times. It adds up quick.
Equally great post Brandon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
You have a very valid point about the reality of "nature AND nurture" and that is in sync with how mainstream science views that problem today, for the most part. Also, you are right to note that Gladwell is talking about 10,000 hours and not reps (I still think Gladwell is the origin of the 10,000 benchmark). I certainly agree that 10,000 hours can help you improve in any field but people who lack talent will only go so far - people with talent who also put in the reps, those are the people who redefine their field and possibly even the world we live in.
I think you are being kind by assuming that all the bands who put 10,000 hours in were excellent. Some people are just stubborn and no one who likes them enough to be honest about the fact they suck. Also, there is a difference from understanding the mechanics, knowing the chords, and the ability to emotively play an instrument that cannot be taught - this is perhaps what separates virtuosos from mere mortals.
To me, an athlete is, in part, someone who can learn the physical mechanics of sports faster than others. George St. Pierre supposedly only needs to be shown a technique once and it sticks. It takes me a long time to learn unusual moves and I have to spend a lot time working on my own to be able to really hit things like the spiral guard well. I have it down now, but someone people take straight to that stuff and their 10,000 hours is probably spent better than mine working on that. My point is that you can find widely different results at the end of 10,000 hours. One guy may know enough to be an expert, the other guy may be a genius, and yet another guy may simply be deluding himself (like the guy who thinks he can knock people down with his chi).
In summary, yeah - 10,000 reps is a good goal on the way to spending 10,000 hours on the mat. The truth is, even if you nail the move at 5,000 reps, you are still learning about the move. There more you learn, there more there is to learn. That's why a black belt is considered just the beginning.
great thread.
Awww man 10,000 reps is to much. Bobby if I pay you can you do my reps for me? Wait....Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
A lot of great comment on this thread so far but i can't help but be reminded of the old saying "Hard work beats talent, when talent refuses to work hard."
I like that sentiment. Holds true often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew "Chewie" James
The scary guys are the ones with talent that also outwork everybody else.
Imagine if Lebron James or Michael Jordan or Robert Griffin III had gotten into Jiu Jitsu instead of basketball or football.
LeBron James and Michael Jordan would be scary if they got into jiu jitsu....RG III would just be hurt all the time, hes over rated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
So is it safe to say no on on here has counted a single tech 10,000 times?
that's a somewhat scary thought but in a good way, the jiu-jitsu landscape would be radically differentQuote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
This has turned into an awesome thread.
Not sure I quite understand what you're saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
So for example, if you were practicing swim move into spiderweb/armbar as "Technique A", would you have your Uki resist and knowingly set you up so you could go into putting on a triangle from spiderweb as "Technique B"?
So you are essentially drilling two possible responses, based on how hard they resist?
Is that what you mean?
Yes, essentially.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurzy
Think Jean Jacques sweep series from Butterfly Guard.