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I feel ya, you can't be scared of leg locks, as a soccer player that fear came naturally for me. So I decided to become a "Leg Dog"
and really focus on my "Leg Game" But I still only practice leg locks with people who know what there doing.
Yeah a few guys i used to train with wouldnt do leg locks and would get pissed if I tried to go for one. I was like practicing without leg locks is like eating a burger with no bun, or smoking a bowl with a match. It just doesnt make since. Needless to say, I no loger train with those guys.
Koolaid no suga, peanut butter no jelly ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Jeffries
I grappled in a cage the other night, in a submission grappling tournament. At the last minute they pulled all leg attacks out of the rules. My entire gym was pretty pissed about it as they wouldn't even allow straight ankle locks.
Umm... Nachos no salsa? Anyways...
It seems to me that completely ignoring leg locks early on in your grappling career is cementing bad habits down the line when you compete at a higher level.
If you go years without having to worry about leg locks and then all of a sudden your game has to change because you realized that you leave your feet in easy reach for your opponent while you roll then that's a huge step back. It comes time to UNlearn what you've been doing forever and that can be a harder task than just getting it right the first time.
It's possible to practice heel hooks and whatnot as a white belt. Just because you got into a position to secure a position doesn't mean that you have to yank on them. If someone gets you in them repeatedly then you know you need to work on it and reevaluate what you've been doing.
You gotta trust the guys your working with. The problem is as an instructor I have to protect the ones who don't know any better (often kids but not always) . I can usually tell when a roll won't end well and will calm them down. I've met a lot of first generation US Gracie guys with pins in their ankles and knees because real men don't tap to leg locks. Not to mention every gym has "that guy" the one who doesn't care if he hurts his partners. I handle it differently if it's inexperience, stupidity in the heat of the moment or someone is just an a-hole. I use leg locks all the time but as a trauma nurse I know that leg injuries are career ending and treat them with caution. Not to mentions it only takes one lawsuit to close a gym.
I don't know that I agree with this. Often times white belts do not have the where-with-all to practice techniques with full control. They're in class for 1/2 a year getting beat by the same guy night after night; maybe another white belt, perhaps ranked higher... then there is that ONE session where they get close, and see the opportunity but they know they have to get it quick!! Bang! A lifetime lesson that someone ELSE has to pay for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Fantastic Shawn Murphy
Don't try to microwave cook the "art" of the 10th Planet system (or any system) for the sake of competition wins only. You may get VERY good, but odds still are you're not going to be the Abu Dahbi champ at 50. Or 60. Or more... I don't think any of you true Nibiru Warriors here signed on as a part time gig. This is for life, right? Have Patience. Embrace Changes. Enjoy the ride!
The biggest issues is most people are ignorant to the subtle nuances of leg locks. Its not the submissions themselves, but rather the positions of control that are important to develop at lower ranks. Learning and developing the skills necessary to transition to the positions of control and escaping them are the real foundation of leg lock development. Its funny how one of major guidelines of Jiu Jitsu is position first then submission however its overlooked when it comes to leg locks. Once you develop your positions of control and your transitions to them you have a number of submissions to choose from:
Straight Leg: Calf Crush, Achilles Lock, Foot Flex, Hand Pressing Foot Flex, etc.
Rotational: Heel hook, Hand Pressing Foot Flex/Heel Hook Combo, Toe Hold, Hip Lock, etc.
and thats just form your standard leg control positions: 50/50, Inside Controls (Clamps, Wedges, Knots, Splits,etc.)
Theres no reason why white belts can't be using straight leg submissions, as long as there is an emphasis on positions and transition.
Respect your training partners and the potential dangers of ALL submissions and you can train with leg locks as you would any other submission.
I personally think that no submission should be outlawed, If the guy doesnt tap, thats there problem
We just do catch and release at my gym, most of the time I don't even have time to tap and the guys already let off. There is zero reason someone needs to get there knee, ankle or whatever torqued on, especially from a teammate practicing with you. But these are higher ranked belts purple, brown, some blue that have taken off the gi to roll with me.
I admit though, I don't like the idea of a spaz white belt trying heel hooks and the like on me.
"Catch and release" is the way to go when training leg locks. Trainsitioning and maintaining position is what leads to the submission. Once you have position with the hip, knee and foot isolated, it takes very little force to tear the ligaments & cartilage in the knee or foot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas White
It is dangerous to train leglocks with a spaz. You can defend a straight foot lock correctly with 'the boot' and still get your ACL blown out if they go crazy to get the tap.
reilly bodycomb position 1-4
allll day
masakazu imanari
We train them at my school....its a submission like anyother, silly to eliminate learning something for any reason...Do heel hooks have the potential to escalate quickly and cause damage to the knee, sure...so dont be a dumb ass. If its in---tap, if its in and and the guy you are training with doesnt wanna tap, let it go and continue. You know if you could have gotten it or not...you are practicing the set ups, control positions and counters live and nobody goes home needing surgery.
Excatly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Green
Funnny how I posted this as a funny goof and it turned into an educational thread ;)
Its nice when it happens that way once in a while, seems like most of the educational threads usually turn into a goof...so this is refreshing :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
Great! I love it! Dean Lister just won ADCC 2011 with leg locks, que no?
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha... This is funny but oh so true. I've taught leg locks at different places and
currently at 10th Planet Riverside and it's always that same old crap about leg locks. So happy 10th
Planet has Chris Herzog leading the way with leg locks. What would we do without him.
Funny how nobody ever says that beginners should not learn leglock defense. So I always tell people
that when they start in on why people should not do leg locks.
I have to be honest... I'm just recently trying to learn a good leg lock game. after nearly 7 years of not even trying for them hardly at all. The reasons being: 1. I was told they were too dangerous... 2. The only leg locks I had ever been introduced to were straight ankle, heel hook, toe holds, and knee bars and I didn't think the game was nearly as extensive as it turned out to be. 3. EVERYONE i trained with considered them a dick move. Now, I'm learning them and truly having a lot of fun :) oh btw... thanks for the advice Herzog! The videos you recommended have been very helpful bro!
One of my buddies just got his knee jacked up becaue he had a straight ankle lock and the guy grabbed his leg and twsted hard and fast. His reasoning was "I had to, you were going to tear my foot off." Cause I guess tapping doesn't make sense
I trained in Judo for years where no leg locks are ever allowed.
Judo is what messed my knees and ankles up more than anything else.
Never had my legs hurt much with leg locks.
American football has the most leg knee injuries.
No leg locks going on there.
I'll admit at first I was against leg locks at the beginner levels mainly cause of a fear of someone making me walk funny forever lol. But honestly cause of watching Herzog's videos and even getting to go to his seminar has easily boosted not just mine but everybody's confidence here , position before submission and his great attention to detail is unmatched by most of the the JJ community. Now we love leg locks I mean Russian Cowboy has changed everything its one of my top favorite positions
Damn that's hilarious Herzog! Reminds me of the jiu jitsu cartoon they have floating around.
I've read every post here, and I can't believe I missed this thread entirely but I'd still love to give my two cents.
i feel we should learn leg locks simultaneously. If one doesn't want to learn the submission, s/he should at least learn the escape. I think it's good etiquette to ask, before you roll with someone, which leg submissions they will be doing and which they are comfortable with being put on them. Then, right off the bat, you'll know their experience level, or level they are willing to delve into.
So that you don't practice bad habits, you should set aside rounds that are dedicated to anything but leg locks. That way you can focus on your passing game, and other sub game. Sure, let your opponent put them on you so you don't get rusty on your defense, but really focus on rolling with and without leg locks. You'll begin to see your habits, both good and bad. I've noticed that when I'm trying to pass guard(leg locks allowed), and I miss, I'll just go for a toe hold and end it quickly. It's no fun knowing you can beat a guy that doesn't know them that well. So I'll focus on purely passing, etc...
I'll tell you what though, ADCC trials, I got slapped in the face because I didn't know leg lock defense as well as I should have. Never again, I told myself. Now if I tap to a leg lock, I know that I had a grapplers chance to get out of it.
My leg lock game has allowed me to hang with the Mendes brothers, Jason Manley, Gokor, Manny Gamburyan, Sevak, Roman, and Karen. These are world class leg lockers, and sure I'll tap to their subs, but when I go against nicer guys, it's night and day. So leg locks have improved my overall game, and now I can focus and whatever I want to focus on, be it passing, inverted, etc., because I know I have room to mess up. And, while I'm still learning all the other techs, I want to see when and where leg locks can be dropped on me.
[One final note, sorry for the lengthy post]: Even if you get the leg lock in, don't yank their leg off... practice "Touch and Go". Even if I have the lock secured, and my opponent hastily grabs my leg, I'll try to escape their leg lock knowing that I could have taken their foot home, and I'll even tap... Why? Because I value my foot more than the satisfaction of breaking someone's leg...
"My leg lock game has allowed me to hang with the Mendes brothers, Jason Manley, Gokor, Manny Gamburyan, Sevak, Roman, and Karen. These are world class leg lockers, and sure I'll tap to their subs, but when I go against nicer guys, it's night and day. So leg locks have improved my overall game, and now I can focus and whatever I want to focus on, be it passing, inverted, etc., because I know I have room to mess up. And, while I'm still learning all the other techs, I want to see when and where leg locks can be dropped on me."
Well said Rick. People need to know about this 10th Planet Gokor connection that we have.
A question for you Rick. Do you see people getting hurt a lot at Gokor's with leg locks?
I never did. Gokor has so much control. He does leglocks and neck cranks all the time
and never seems to hurt people too much.
I rarely see people get hurt by leg locks. As a matter of fact, I've seen more people get hurt with arm bars. There is a proper way to defend an armbar, and it ain't pulling out of it- it's compressing and stacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by 10th Planet Riverside, Ca
But back to leg locks... just do your game and never, ever pull and torque to hurt someone. Let go of your ego and tap, or if you are the one dropping the sub, let go if he doesn't tap. Acknowledge mentally, that you've got him, and proceed-> Touch and go.
Speaking of Neck Cranks... that's the next big thing you all need to jump on board with!
Oh yea Grooms, neck cranks! There scary, nasty and I really like them.Quote:
Originally Posted by J Grooms
Gokor and Gene LeBell are known for their leg locks but LeBell's favorite
techniques are neck cranks and he can put the hurt on you with them.
I've got one really good neck crank instructionals and it's a lot of the
neck cranks Gene LeBell does. Besides being the greatest in judo Gene
LeBell is one of the greatest Catch Wrestlers of all time. He learned from
the great Catch Wrestler Lew Thez and then beat Lew Thez.
LikeQuote:
Originally Posted by 10th Planet Riverside, Ca
Yes I love neck cranks! Lou Thesz was pretty overrated as far as shooters go. He learned some holds in the carnivals, but he was mainly a show wrestler. I'm pretty sure Gene Lebell also learned under Karl Gotch.
I think they should all be allowed. Its not the technique that usually hurts someone, in my experience its not tapping. Eddie pointed out one time that chokes are one of the best things to use because they are adrenaline proof, you can resist all you want but night night is still night night. On real extreme situations guys like Miguel Torres had his ankle broken in a match vs Richard Nancoo and still won the fight. That is an extreme example of resisting though and a little off my point. I think the rule is generally there to protect people from themselves. There are lots of rotational locks that dont hurt a lot... that just seem to build pressure then BANG. And competitors wont tap because they pussh the limitations in an attempt not to lose. In any advanced level competition though you should know your own limitations and tap if necessary, dont take the locks out. Especially if the rules of the match encourage bad habits (ie crossing your feet below the waste with back mount, the leg lock available there should be allowed at all levels, because to make it illegal encourages bad habits).
Yes, Gene LeBell learned from many Catch wrestlers. Read below to find out how. Also the famous Main St. BoxingQuote:
Originally Posted by J Grooms
gym was near the Olympic Auditorium and Gene LeBell would train there too. LeBell trained in Judo, Boxing, Karate,
Catch Wrestling and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. LeBell knows all those Akido wrist locks too. You do know what Gene LeBell
did to Steven Seagull, right?
Gene LeBell started young in the world of fighting. Gene's mother, Aileen Eaton, owned and operated the Olympic Auditorium. The Olympic was built in 1927 for the Olympic Games in 1932. It has housed some of the greatest boxers and wrestlers of all time - Muhammad Ali, Jerry Quarry, Gorgeous George, Jimmy Londos, John "The Golden Greek" Tolos, Sugar Ray Robinson, Andre the Giant, Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Henry Armstrong, Gene Fullmer, Emile Griffith, Floyd Patterson, Lauro Salas, Ike Williams, Mando Ramos, Danny Lopez, Carlos Palomino, Jimmy Carter, Art Aragon, Sugar Ramos, Carlos Ortiz, Willy Pep, Lou Thesz, and a thousand more - and Gene was warming up the mat with them as early as age 6. One wrestler in particular, Ed "Strangler" Lewis, started Gene off in the world of grappling (not wrestling, wrestling has different rules). Ed explained that with grappling you could do just about anything to your opponent. You could hit the guy, do heel locks, ankle locks, armbars, back locks, neck locks, tweak the nose or choke him out.
Yes I'm aware of Genes and Seagul lol... I was just saying that Lou Thesz ia not a great representative of catch wrestling.
What about Tony Cecchine and the ever lovable Matt Furey? LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by J Grooms
Matt Furey went to Gokor's just one time. He didn't roll.
They said he made a lot of money from his Catch Wrestling
DVDs as well as Tony Cecchine.
What is it you have so against Lou Thez. I think you are confused on him.
Gene LeBell personally told me that he saw Lou Thez line up the best
college Olympic wrestlers in the world and beat everyone of them one
after the other in real wrestling matches. Does that sound like a show
wrestler to you. I think sometime we hear things and it gets stuck in
our heads. I seen Gene LeBell in action. The man is dangerous. Just
ask Eric Paulson, Chuck Norris and many other people who know.
Oh, Gene LeBell train for over 12 years or so with J.J. Machado. J.J. Machado
was surprised that Gene LeBell already knew BJJ before training with the Machados.
J.J. Machado told me personally that he would not want to get Gene LeBell mad.
This coming from J.J. Machado himself. Gene LeBell taught the Machados the
lock down and that's where Eddie Bravo got the lock down.
It's a small world.Quote:
Originally Posted by 10th Planet Riverside, Ca
holy fuck i went to the local gym in my hometown for a drop in over the xmas break and got shit all over for using a rolling toe hold to pass to the back (i never attempted to finish it at all), and for trapping the leg from (being in) open guard across my body to do the faux anklelock pass., leg locks are gnarly, fun, super efficient, and a huge part of my game.
if you don't wanna tap to the leg lock and you want to tear up your mensicus and acl that's not my problem, just tap fool. i could just as easily break your arm or your shoulder doing a double wrist lock or straight armlock just as easily or maybe more easily than i could do any permanent damage to you with a kneebar, power achilles, or straight ankle lock.
that being said, heel hooks seem pretty ruthless and dangerous to train with at lowish levels at least. heel hooks scare the shit out of me, even the position without cranking is terribly uncomfortable i can almost feel my joint tearing apart as its applied.
sorry not the rolling toe hold, i don't twist the foot, i get my forearm under the ankle and press it forward, think this is what hertz was referring to with the "Hand Pressing Foot Flex"
i only do straight leg locks, rotational ones are spooky, i'm a newb whitebelt poser bish, i don't wanna hurt anyone.
Yeah at my gym for whites/blues I want them focusing on the positions of control and transitions of entry into those positions. The white belts are only allowed to apply straight leg locks: Knee bars, knee crushes, straight ankle lockes, straight foot flexes while rolling. I always allow them the ability to work rotation leg locks while repping technique, just not during rolling. By the time they hit blue belt they'll have an appreation for the potential damage it can create if your traning partner does something stupid in an attempt to escape, they'll have the where with all to release the sub, while mantaining solid position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefheart
this is honestly the first time i've heard the straight vs rotational distinction in leg locks and it's so dope and this leglock discourse has already started to change the way i think about leg locks.,
leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock
Well, then this will help you get healthy dose for today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefheart
Another benefit of limiting a beginner's lower body submissions to just straight leg locks is that Straight leg locks generally require a higher level of control (more stretch/squeeze in the knees depending on the position)than rotational locks. Straight leg subs like straight ankle locks, and knee bars require more core strength (arching the hips, which require an anchor held by the squeeze or the stretch) to execute. So by the time they can even use rotation locks while rolling(Blue Belt) they will have had a healthy dose of experience and time in on those lower body positions of control.