Phasing out the lockdown

I'm curious: Do people stop using lockdown, or use it only as a last resort, once they become more advanced (say purple belt)?

I just got my blue belt, and lockdown has been my go-to game up to now. I have had success with it in competition, but I've always competed in the beginner division and against guys who have never dealt with it before.

I was always aware of the critics of the lockdown ("You're putting yourself flat on your back"), but I just assumed that they hadn't spent enough time working on it and gave up before they developed it fully. Lately, however, I'm not so sure. I see a lot of guys playing deep half in the higher levels, but I don't think I've ever seen someone play the lockdown game effectively against experienced opponents. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Eddie never seems to use it when rolling with his students.

So, does the lockdown become less applicable the more advanced you get?

well obviously you need to use more than just 1 half guard, z-guard, deep half, normal half guard all have their time and their place.

lockdown if anything is more advanced.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Carey

well obviously you need to use more than just 1 half guard, z-guard, deep half, normal half guard all have their time and their place.

lockdown if anything is more advanced.

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Yeah, but we don't spend nearly as much time talking about those other half guards. Lockdown has been featured extensively on Mastering the System. Maybe that's just because Eddie wanted to give people something they couldn't find somewhere else, but it feels like he thinks lockdown is to half-guard what rubber guard is to full guard. In other words, it's a go-to position.

But should it be? If you go for the lockdown and you can't improve the position, you are flat on your back, and those other half guards are even harder to get to.

How does lockdown = flat?

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

How does lockdown = flat?

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Well, typically you have to whip up or down to get to your side. But if you aren't able to do either of those things, then you are flat on your back.

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Originally Posted by David Stager

I'm curious: Do people stop using lockdown, or use it only as a last resort, once they become more advanced (say purple belt)?

I just got my blue belt, and lockdown has been my go-to game up to now. I have had success with it in competition, but I've always competed in the beginner division and against guys who have never dealt with it before.

I was always aware of the critics of the lockdown ("You're putting yourself flat on your back"), but I just assumed that they hadn't spent enough time working on it and gave up before they developed it fully. Lately, however, I'm not so sure. I see a lot of guys playing deep half in the higher levels, but I don't think I've ever seen someone play the lockdown game effectively against experienced opponents. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Eddie never seems to use it when rolling with his students.

So, does the lockdown become less applicable the more advanced you get?

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Bull shit mate, Eddie goes straight to quarter guard to lockdown and finishes all of his godamn people with that. Either A. ask him or watch him roll live, B. watch mastering the system cuz he rapes people with it. C. watch his you tube rolls almost always equals lockdown to twister side. D. eat a bowl of great gravy dumped on Mashed potatoes. Be good.

Uhh, okay. I guess I'll take a closer look at his rolls.

I use the lock-down on purple belts and up when I roll every day. Pulled off a mechanic twice yesterday! What Don said about the great gravy and mash is on the money also.

"You got to have game with that foot!" Take that statement real serious. I screwed up quarter guard so many times it finally clicked. Everyone gets stressed real quick when I dive in and grab their foot now. Stay on the path.

I was using lockdown in ever match I did today, seemed to work wonders, lockdown , double unders- whip up - electric chair ! they caught on to the electric chair pretty quick tho...

Eddie pulls a foot everytime when he rolls.

Eddie used lockdown in the biggest match of his career

It depends on your opponent. I can relate to what you're saying though. I personally use lockdown as a secondary half guard. That might be because most of the guys I roll with have some sort of defense to lockdown. idk. Black belt Jeremy Arel kills my lockdown. I know he has worked a particular defense specifically to kill it though. On Thursday night I had a legit Alliance brown belt stop in the gym though. He was a jacked 185lbs and has been grappling for 10 yrs. I hung with him mostly as he took top position and I played bottom. I was struggling with playing z guard which I use quite often. He was starting to smash me, so I kicked in the lockdown and he had NO clue wtf was going on. I sweep him with basic electric chair. He ended up catching me in an arm bar after 8 minutes, but I was happy with my success.
I guess my point is, it depends. I wouldn't rely on it, but of course use when applicable. I typically test it out and see how my opponents react to it. I play in and out of it constantly which really throws off my opponents.

You should not be flat on your back during lockdown. Eddie makes a point of posting on his elbow.

The other half guards are good also, but my go to is the lockdown. Half-butterfly is very sweep friendly as well.

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Originally Posted by James Fazzolari

You should not be flat on your back during lockdown. Eddie makes a point of posting on his elbow.

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I'll give this a try.

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Originally Posted by James Fazzolari

You should not be flat on your back during lockdown. Eddie makes a point of posting on his elbow.

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No. If you are talking about whipping up to your elbow you will get darced or JNT or 100%. To put in the lockdown and stretch it out before you whip up you WILL be flat on your back.

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Originally Posted by Jon Helton

... of course use when applicable. I typically test it out and see how my opponents react to it. I play in and out of it constantly which really throws off my opponents.

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if your opponent isn't hip to it, it'll work wonders. i find myself working the lockdown more than ever these days, simply because i am better at the other styles of half guard now.

flow into the empty space. be like water.

So, when you guys are rolling against opponents who are hip to the lockdown game, do you avoid it entirely, or do you still try it and see if you can make something happen before transitioning to something else?

I suppose there's always the stomp to butterfly transition if you've got the overhook, but have you guys ever gotten the double underhooks and the guy on top uses shoulder pressure on the neck to keep you from getting to your side?

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Wylie

No. If you are talking about whipping up to your elbow you will get darced or JNT or 100%.

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+1 dont get up to your elbow....bad idea I promise it wont end well.

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Originally Posted by David Stager

So, when you guys are rolling against opponents who are hip to the lockdown game, do you avoid it entirely, or do you still try it and see if you can make something happen before transitioning to something else?

I suppose there's always the stomp to butterfly transition if you've got the overhook, but have you guys ever gotten the double underhooks and the guy on top uses shoulder pressure on the neck to keep you from getting to your side?

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You are not using your hands and the Lockdown properly. If you are, you will have control of their base, without base the elbow pressure is non existant. Specially when you use your hands along with your whip up. They end up worrying more about regaining base.

If you use the lockdown as your go to half guard game it can breed a tendency to give up the cross face and letting yourself get smashed while trying to get double under hooks. Which is unfortunate because sometimes you can prevent the cross face, hip out, and get into an offensive half guard position while bypassing the entire lockdown series.

That being said, when you do get flattened out.. the lockdown is probably the most valuable half guard you can have. I use it like a worst case scenario guard when I get smashed and flattened. I'd rather get the underhook, hip out, and drive into the guy while he's trying to pass my guard but most of the time, that just won't happen.

Like any guard, it has it's place, it's range, and it's optimum set of circumstances. The reason why I gravitated to it so strongly was simply because I was getting smashed so damn hard when I started training. When your flattened out, cross faced, and getting smooshed into the mat.. that little outside figure four and grapevine becomes a life saver. Then, to take such a horrible position and to then use it as a position for offense... mind blowing. You only have to hit the electric chair once on a dominating wrestler to appreciate the value of the lockdown.

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

If you use the lockdown as your go to half guard game it can breed a tendency to give up the cross face and letting yourself get smashed while trying to get double under hooks. Which is unfortunate because sometimes you can prevent the cross face, hip out, and get into an offensive half guard position while bypassing the entire lockdown series...

...Like any guard, it has it's place, it's range, and it's optimum set of circumstances...

...You only have to hit the electric chair once on a dominating wrestler to appreciate the value of the lockdown.

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Great post.

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Originally Posted by Don "Singlet" Blankenship

Bull shit mate, Eddie goes straight to quarter guard to lockdown and finishes all of his godamn people with that. Either A. ask him or watch him roll live, B. watch mastering the system cuz he rapes people with it. C. watch his you tube rolls almost always equals lockdown to twister side. D. eat a bowl of great gravy dumped on Mashed potatoes. Be good.

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So, after about 34 seconds of searching on youtube I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWlJFleWA0s

My faith in the lockdown has been restored. I will now eat a bowl of mashed potatoes and gravy along with my words.

EDIT: Here's another video I probably should have checked out before starting this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjusB6irVE0

Moral of the story, do your homework.

Like any other technique it takes a ton of practice. You need to get a good feel on bottom of which way your opponents weight is going and who has what under\over hooks. I dont like being flat on my back so i use lockdown when on my side. i rarely come up to my elbow unless he uses the twister pass. Like any other technique it has its time and place and doesnt work 100% of the time. That being said its my goto technique on the bottom and I have had success with it on almost everyone (including purples\browns and blacks).

I have felt this way for a while. I fully believe the lockdown can be effective at the black belt level. But there are specialists in a lot of odd guards that might not overall be the most effective for the most people. I think lockdown is particularly good for and against certain body types. But I think shield (93 guard), butterfly, x and single-leg-x, and even just a regular 1/2 guard seem more important against higher level guys (at least for the non specialists). That's not to say I don't see its potential. There are a lot of high level guys I think would get blown out of the water in Eddie's lockdown. I'm just saying, I think the others might be better overall for more people.

that's a totally legit statement. i prefer butterfly and half-butterfly guard compared to the lockdown but i definitely see its applicability and use it and a secondary version of half-guard that i play.

The lockdown is still my go-to game. 1/4 first, then mini stomps to lockdown. Electric chairs, twist backs, plan b's and if I can get an over hook stomps to rubber guard are still my go-2's.

Don't feel weak if you are having trouble with the lockdown game, go to whatever you're best at, we also need deep half players, spiral players, open guard players, x guard players and de la riva players. Everyone can't play lockdown, we would suffer as a species :)

have i told you guys lately that i love being a 10th planet guy? look at all the feedback and advice.
half guard works great for me even if it's only to prevent the pass when i'm dead tired.

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Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

The lockdown is still my go-to game. 1/4 first, then mini stomps to lockdown. Electric chairs, twist backs, plan b's and if I can get an over hook stomps to rubber guard are still my go-2's.

Don't feel weak if you are having trouble with the lockdown game, go to whatever you're best at, we also need deep half players, spiral players, open guard players, x guard players and de la riva players. Everyone can't play lockdown, we would suffer as a species :)

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Thanks for saying this, Eddie.

practice more

Yeah, gotta give props to this place. Look how open minded Eddie is (yet again), and how great the feedback is. You don't hear, "No, you're an idiot, lockdown is better than every other guard", even from the lockdown players. Thanks to Eddie, as well as everyone else on here who makes it possible.

Even though some of the people in my gym don't love TPJJ (we are Humaita, under Royler), we always talk about forums. Everyone complains about the antics and tangents that come up on sherdog, and even the UG. As I always explain, this is the best grappling forum in the world.

Lock down is my go to game.
The bigger my opponent the less it works. So when going against stronger big guys who smash me onto my back it will keep them from passing/having base, but i can't do much to sweep either. So i've had to face that I must learn ways around bigger dudes like taking the back and moving faster which I don't as much enjoy. ..also my game rarely works on better players no matter what I try.

They don't teach lock down at my school so when I do it people think it's not fair and they don't like it. ;)

My instructor has a great half guard-centered game. He does not use the lock down. So there's much left to master! I rock the Jeff Glover deep half when I have to on bigger guys.


**Also, it took me a long time to feel the lock down with confidence. For a long time I was afraid to believe in it for fear of being shown up. Now it's my everything.

lockdown is pretty awesome if you polish it up. i mean ive rolled a few browns n some blacks that knew the lockdown and speed got me through my transitions. idk if anyone else is working it like this but when i get the lockdown i go super turbo ninja power level 9000 haha n blast through the transitions. whether im goin electric chair, dog fight, or the butterfly route. im always tossin them around. im a pretty small guy and it works for me, even on larger guys, so its not like it couldnt work for anyone else, but to each his own.

I enjoy getting my opponents in the lockdown and it's very effective for me. I don't keep the guy there for very long because I don't want him to have time to think (about passing). So, it's usually Lockdown, then quickly Whip Up and typically either Old School or Electric Chair as a sub - or sweep to Stoner Control > Side Control.

Anybody ever develop that Jeff Glover duck under escape from half guard as a counter for losing a lockdown? The one that looks a lot like Herzog's ghost escape?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJPWlW-Harw&feature=youtu.be

Dave,

You shouldnt feel like lockdown is your only option, because there are plenty of times where you need other moves, but that being said, I get messed up and see others messed up by good lockdowns every day at HQ. Lockdown is for life.

lockdown doesnt go away, you just add more to your game

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Originally Posted by Harry Evans

Yeah, gotta give props to this place. Look how open minded Eddie is (yet again), and how great the feedback is. You don't hear, "No, you're an idiot, lockdown is better than every other guard", even from the lockdown players. Thanks to Eddie, as well as everyone else on here who makes it possible.

Even though some of the people in my gym don't love TPJJ (we are Humaita, under Royler), we always talk about forums. Everyone complains about the antics and tangents that come up on sherdog, and even the UG. As I always explain, this is the best grappling forum in the world.

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That's bad ass coming from a Gracie school, thank you very much for the love and support! :)

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

Anybody ever develop that Jeff Glover duck under escape from half guard as a counter for losing a lockdown? The one that looks a lot like Herzog's ghost escape?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJPWlW-Harw&feature=youtu.be

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I need to do this more i think. There are certain guys that can just peel through your LD either by being bigger and stronger or just good as hell or both, which is frustrating and plants doubt. For the past couple months, I have deliberately picked this fight with those guys in hopes of improving. While I probly did, so did they, so it appears gridlocked.

Jeff's timing is what makes this move. Before he can give any pressure your out. I wait too long at times.

And Eddie's 'dipset' drill for lockdown is badass. 20 reps a practice and I guarantee recognizable gains.

are we like a weird martial sect?

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

Anybody ever develop that Jeff Glover duck under escape from half guard as a counter for losing a lockdown? The one that looks a lot like Herzog's ghost escape?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJPWlW-Harw&feature=youtu.be

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Yep almost the same, I taught the Ghost and a number of variations this past weekend in Miami. The Ghost as a counter to the knee over pass and from modified scarf hold, along with the entire side control Ghost Series were included.