Verdum on Magalhaes loss. The White belts were correct.

Its not a matter of if he did it right, its the point of the situation. Thats like saying- if only the QB completed that pass in the end zone, they woulda won! There are a ton more things going on at the moment..reasons he probably didn't do it. Hindsight is 20/20. its the point of the pressure. We alllllll know how to do armbar, just not an armbar in the finals of ADCC.
If only he passed the guard he would have won! If only he submitted him! really easy to say from your couch...or even in hindsight.

lol i think the whole point was completely lost..

Yes, white belts for the win!!! :)

Werdum also said told his training partner to let him do the open leg armbar on him, and he showed him that it works.

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Originally Posted by Kendell Madden

Its not a matter of if he did it right, its the point of the situation. Thats like saying- if only the QB completed that pass in the end zone, they woulda won! There are a ton more things going on at the moment..reasons he probably didn't do it. Hindsight is 20/20. its the point of the pressure. We alllllll know how to do armbar, just not an armbar in the finals of ADCC.
If only he passed the guard he would have won! If only he submitted him! really easy to say from your couch...or even in hindsight.

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+1

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Originally Posted by Jacob Allen

Werdum also said told his training partner to let him do the open leg armbar on him, and he showed him that it works.

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Exactly. And he more or less stated that Magalhaes is a freak of nature bc his arm wouldn't "click".

Watching the fight, hearing the interview, I'm not sure if we'll ever really know. It's kinda speculative.

Kendall makes a good point. But on the other side of things, I think we all know that pinching the arm with closed legs can help a lot. Maybe Werdum got so used to doing it with open legs that he figured he didn't need to adjust. Maybe Vinny is just "un-armba-able." Maybe Vinny could shed light and tell us whether or not he believes Werdum would've finished if he would've pinched the arm.

There's a lot of maybe's. I wouldn't say the white belts are 100% right. But it's not like they were 100% wrong either.

But from what I gather from the interview, it's not like Werdum was TRYING to close his legs and pinch the arm. He just figured it would work as it was. Clearly it didn't. And just because it worked on his training partner doesn't mean it would work on Vinny Mag. Clearly it didn't. And we can speculate that Werdum might have finished if he would've closed the legs.

I think I'll PM Vinny and see what he has to say.

I PM'd Vinny. I think his input would be valuable to the discussion. I'm not sure if he'll respond. I know he's a super busy guy. I asked him the following:

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Basically, the question is: Do you feel as though Werdum might have tapped you with the arm bar had he closed his legs to isolate your arm? Did his open legs give you more room to wiggle and avoid the arm bar? Or are you just a freak of nature with super flexible joints?

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I'm not sure if he'll respond, but I figure it's worth a shot. Regardless of anything, "rookie" mistake or not, Vinny's defense was incredible and he earned that win. Closed legs or not, I dare anyone try and get armbarred by Werdum and not tap.

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Originally Posted by Caliphate Ishtar Allah

No, he was impressed because of his error. Just as GSP with hardy made a mistake and then a myth starts that Hardy is some kind of rubber painless monster, which he is not. You can pop any elbow far back enough so the ref would have stopped it.

And so the hole gets deeper.

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In all fairness, nothing in that interview implies that Werdum feels he made a mistake. If anything he affirms that he made no mistake since the same armbar worked on his training partner.
GSP admits to making a mistake. Werdum seems to believe that Vinny is just a freak of nature.

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

In all fairness, nothing in that interview implies that Werdum feels he made a mistake. If anything he affirms that he made no mistake since the same armbar worked on his training partner.
GSP admits to making a mistake. Werdum seems to believe that Vinny is just a freak of nature.

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Caliphate Ishtar Allah

The mistake was Verdums and Vinny could not even see what was happening. Also note Verdum has nothing but praise for Vinny and conceded he won without question. Yet the truth remains subjective.

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Well, you train, so you should know, you may not "see" what's happening, but you can feel what's happening. Plus, I'm sure he's seen the video. I know when I drill with guys, they can always tell me what I did wrong from feeling it. "You moved around the arm so I was able to base when you were trying to bump me to my side." Or, "your focusing too much on dropping to your side and you keep forgetting to hook that leg." I'm sure a black belt like Vinny can give a well informed opinion on whether or not Werdum might've finished had he made an adjustment.

I don't think the truth is subjective. I think it's more speculative than anything. I mean, technically, we'll never know because it never happened. But I think Vinny's input can help us understand the events a bit better.

Plus, I'm a fan and it'd be cool to see homie chime in with some exclusive info.

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Originally Posted by Jacob Allen

Werdum also said told his training partner to let him do the open leg armbar on him, and he showed him that it works.

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Show me one video or interview of a black belt saying it is okay to open your legs while doing an armbar. The fact that an open leg armbar works on his training partner means very little. For one, we don't know if he fixed his other mistakes that he made while armbaring Vinny (feet to the ground, not crossing his feet, having Vinny's elbow instead of his shoulder under his hips) and we don't know if his training partners elbow can bend a little back like Vinny's. As I've stated before in the other thread, it was a combination of a bunch of mistakes mixed in with Vinny's slightly flexible elbow. My elbow is the same way, it can go a little back but if someone does a proper armbar, it will surely pop. Again, saying an open leg armbar worked on his training partner doesn't mean anything. You can do a loose triangle on a thicker opponent because there's less space but you can't do that same loose triangle on someone thinner, just like you can do a sloppy armbar on someone with stiff elbows and not on someone with flexible ones.

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

Well, you train, so you should know, you may not "see" what's happening, but you can feel what's happening. Plus, I'm sure he's seen the video. I know when I drill with guys, they can always tell me what I did wrong from feeling it. "You moved around the arm so I was able to base when you were trying to bump me to my side." Or, "your focusing too much on dropping to your side and you keep forgetting to hook that leg." I'm sure a black belt like Vinny can give a well informed opinion on whether or not Werdum might've finished had he made an adjustment.

I don't think the truth is subjective. I think it's more speculative than anything. I mean, technically, we'll never know because it never happened. But I think Vinny's input can help us understand the events a bit better.

Plus, I'm a fan and it'd be cool to see homie chime in with some exclusive info.

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I showed the video to 3 black belts at separate times and all 3 came up with the same conclusion that Werdum did a horrible armbar without me telling them anything prior.

Bottom line is... When the ref stood them up Verdum should have thrown the head kick and finished with face stomps. Can't be scared to pull the trigger.

Word Justin. I believe the same thing. Just because an armbar perfomed a certain way works on person A doesn't mean the same armbar will work on person B. The factors you mentioned seem plausible too.

But open legged arm bars can work depending on situation.

My speculation is just that Werdum is just used to doing his arm bar like that so he didn't feel the need to do it the way we think he needed to.

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Originally Posted by Kendell Madden

Its not a matter of if he did it right, its the point of the situation. Thats like saying- if only the QB completed that pass in the end zone, they woulda won! There are a ton more things going on at the moment..reasons he probably didn't do it. Hindsight is 20/20. its the point of the pressure. We alllllll know how to do armbar, just not an armbar in the finals of ADCC.
If only he passed the guard he would have won! If only he submitted him! really easy to say from your couch...or even in hindsight.

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No, it's like catching the ball right before the end zone and not going in. It's like almost passing the guard and leaving just your big toe in there. The point is that he had the armbar with Vinny's arm fully extended except Werdum made mistakes. Again, I never claimed to know more than Werdum or that Werdum doesn't know how to do a proper armbar but it doesn't matter who you are, a mistake is a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Justin W.

I showed the video to 3 black belts at separate times and all 3 came up with the same conclusion that Werdum did a horrible armbar without me telling them anything prior.

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Haha. Fair enough. In Werdum's defense, arm barring another high level BB is a tall order. I mean, yeah it worked on his training partner....but if his training partner was that good, I'd assume he'd be competing in ADCC too, right?

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Originally Posted by Caliphate Ishtar Allah

You are failing to understand Verdum limited English lexicon.

"Luca say, Luca say for me, my, my partner say (Insert Portuguese) "Close the legs", "lay down" "I show you, L...lay down I show you," I open my legs a just a little bit, and ahhhhyyyyyy" its ok its ok, Its crazy" crazy, crazy"

Not a difficult interpretation if you know Brazilians.

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LOL. I suppose.

It's not about what he should have done. It's about respecting a high level competitor enough to assume your OBVIOUS "tips" are things he's known for years.
It is what it is and white belts (including myself) have NO damn place to give our half ass'd advise.
Sure you might think you know better. Keep it to yourself.
If you can roll with Vinny, get him in the exact same position and then finish the armbar - you have place to give tips.
Sometimes white belts can advise or remind higher graded people in gym or practice but in the finals of ADCC, just shut up.

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Originally Posted by Calan

It's not about what he should have done. It's about respecting a high level competitor enough to assume your OBVIOUS "tips" are things he's known for years.
It is what it is and white belts (including myself) have NO damn place to give our half ass'd advise.
Sure you might think you know better. Keep it to yourself.
If you can roll with Vinny, get him in the exact same position and then finish the armbar - you have place to give tips.
Sometimes white belts can advise or remind higher graded people in gym or practice but in the finals of ADCC, just shut up.

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+1

Ahem, I did not cave to peer pressure. My opinions are my own & I like to think well thought out. My opinion while watching 2 of the worlds greatest jiujitsu artists compete in the final match of the worlds most prestigious no-gi tournament - is that Werdum didn't just forget how to finish an arm-bar & make a rookie mistake. He's surely practiced the arm-bar technique 1000s of times more than myself or any other non-world champion commenting on his loss. Did you notice in the video Werdum calls the arm-bar his specialty? I think when guys at that level execute a technique off the normal script they do so on purpose & for their own reasons. Reasons that work for their game & their body type.

I think that it is pretty reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt here. While I do know that I need to pinch my legs together when finishing an arm-bar - I don't know what type of elite strategies are implemented at the top level of the game. Maybe he felt that even pinching the legs wouldn't add enough extra pressure. Maybe in their exact position closing his knees could have reduced his mobility. Maybe he felt he had maximum pressure already & didn't want to burn his legs if it would not increase his chance to finish. Maybe he was trying to bait for a transition to a tighter submission. Maybe he was being lazy. Maybe he has been tapping people for so long with slightly improper technique that he no longer executes the optimal finish - it's possible... but considering all of the other 'maybes' I stand by my original conclusion.

Werdum probably didn't make a rookie mistake & forget how to finish the arm bar. He just did what he thought was best for the situation & I defer to his opinion.

The only thing I can imagine with Werdum is that maybe Vinny's defensive turn out triggered a defensive reaction from Werdum to focus more on his leg curl over the pinch of his knees. Then the grip fighting and finish attempt changed his mental focus causing his legs to remain in the last position he used (the bowed out leg curl that he implemented to negate Vinny's spin attempts).

There's a lot of mental multi tasking going on and it wouldn't surprise me, if even at the highest levels of competition, that residual body positioning will carry over from the last control position if a fighters attention is focused elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Calan

It's not about what he should have done. It's about respecting a high level competitor enough to assume your OBVIOUS "tips" are things he's known for years.
It is what it is and white belts (including myself) have NO damn place to give our half ass'd advise.
Sure you might think you know better. Keep it to yourself.
If you can roll with Vinny, get him in the exact same position and then finish the armbar - you have place to give tips.
Sometimes white belts can advise or remind higher graded people in gym or practice but in the finals of ADCC, just shut up.

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First off, no one is giving Werdum advice. He doesn't read this forum. I was just pointing out the mistake that he did. Just because people are the best at something, doesn't mean they're perfect at it. The winner is determined by who makes the least crucial mistakes. Also, no one has stated that they know better than Werdum. So that's out of the question as well. What you "know" and what you "do" are two different things. I respect Werdum, he's always been one of my fav. HW fighters. If Werdum's armbar was intentionally done like that, rather than a proper armbar, it should've worked right? I guarantee that if you ask Werdum how to do an armbar, he wouldn't show it like he did it in ADCC. If people aren't allowed to speculate on people higher belts than their own, then white belts shouldn't even be allowed to post.

Anyways, I'm done. I can't even believe I'm debating whether a foot crossed, open leg, feet not touching the ground armbar is correct or not.

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9...bmu5o1_400.gif

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Originally Posted by Jared Gammel

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9...bmu5o1_400.gif

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Best GIF EVER

at the end of the day i think we can all agree that white belts > all other belts (until red & black)

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Originally Posted by Beefheart

at the end of the day i think we can all agree that white belts > all other belts (until red & black)

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white power, white power.... wait a minute that isn't right.

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Originally Posted by Caliphate Ishtar Allah

Karyn Bryant posted a video interview with Verdum in which he talks about the armbar and how amazed he was that Vinny held on without a pop or crack sound happening.

His training partner (Luca) apparently was yelling at him to close his legs and pinch the arm. I remember the almost all the white belts "Tyler Timmermans "James Steele" "Jameson (Weebo)""Justin W." saying this on here only to be ridiculed by the arrogance of a Blue and Purple belted. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Only "Michael Sioda" caved into peer pressure and claimed Verdum would not make a rookie mistake.

Go back and re-read the thread with Verdum own words in your head. Its embarrassing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqSlS...&feature=feedu

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This thread isn't making much sense, I'm sorry...

Werdum is saying totally the opposite of what you're claiming... He said on this video that that arm bar is his specialty, and that he did have his partner telling that he should have pinched his knee, that's why it didn't work on me, but then he grabbed his partner, did the move just like he did it on me, and the move still worked...
He even mentioned that he got Jeff Monson the day before our match, with exactly the same move, doing it exactly the same way...
As a matter of fact, this whole: 'don't cross your legs', 'pinch your knees', etc, are just little tricks that you want the beginners to know, so they don't develop bad habits and don't get to sloppy with their moves, in reality, there's no rule like "the arm bar will NEVER work if you cross your feet, or if you don't pinch your knees"...

Did you guys watch Roger vs Jacare when Jacare had his arm broken by Roger? Well, if so you'll remember that Roger had his feet crossed while applying the arm bar, and guess what, he still broke Jacare's arm.
Supposedly, you shouldn't cross your feet in arm bar from guard though, right?

Did it hurt bad?

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Originally Posted by Taylor Culbertson

Did it hurt bad?

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No, just like Fabricio said, it didn't pop at all, not even once... it was just annoying, because I felt like I was stuck in the arm bar, but it wasn't hurting...

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Originally Posted by Vinny Magalhaes

No, just like Fabricio said, it didn't pop at all, not even once... it was just annoying, because I felt like I was stuck in the arm bar, but it wasn't hurting...

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It is about time another manly man showed up on here. I don't feel pain either. I haven't cried in 3 years, unless you count crying from emotions like sadness and humiliation.

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Originally Posted by Vinny Magalhaes

No, just like Fabricio said, it didn't pop at all, not even once... it was just annoying, because I felt like I was stuck in the arm bar, but it wasn't hurting...

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thanks for responding Vinny, so do you feel like he messed up? Or do u feel he just couldn't finish you cuz u are awesome?

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Originally Posted by Cody Kietzman

thanks for responding Vinny, so do you feel like he messed up? Or do u feel he just couldn't finish you cuz u are awesome?

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I don't think he messed up, like he said, that's his move, he caught Monson with the same move, with the same details... I'm not awesome, but i also wouldn't tap in the ADCC finals with only couple minutes left...

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Originally Posted by Vinny Magalhaes

I don't think he messed up, like he said, that's his move, he caught Monson with the same move, with the same details... I'm not awesome, but i also wouldn't tap in the ADCC finals with only couple minutes left...

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We really appreciate u chiming in. It sounds like you just put up a really good fight against a legit move. Thanks again for your input best of luck in the future!

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Originally Posted by Vinny Magalhaes

I don't think he messed up, like he said, that's his move, he caught Monson with the same move, with the same details... I'm not awesome, but i also wouldn't tap in the ADCC finals with only couple minutes left...

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I think you're awesome ;)

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Originally Posted by Vinny Magalhaes

This thread isn't making much sense, I'm sorry...

Werdum is saying totally the opposite of what you're claiming... He said on this video that that arm bar is his specialty, and that he did have his partner telling that he should have pinched his knee, that's why it didn't work on me, but then he grabbed his partner, did the move just like he did it on me, and the move still worked...
He even mentioned that he got Jeff Monson the day before our match, with exactly the same move, doing it exactly the same way...
As a matter of fact, this whole: 'don't cross your legs', 'pinch your knees', etc, are just little tricks that you want the beginners to know, so they don't develop bad habits and don't get to sloppy with their moves, in reality, there's no rule like "the arm bar will NEVER work if you cross your feet, or if you don't pinch your knees"...

Did you guys watch Roger vs Jacare when Jacare had his arm broken by Roger? Well, if so you'll remember that Roger had his feet crossed while applying the arm bar, and guess what, he still broke Jacare's arm.
Supposedly, you shouldn't cross your feet in arm bar from guard though, right?

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Congrats on the GOLD and on the recent M-1 victory! You're an inspiration man!

Congrats on your recent success Vinny and your input on the forum is much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

Word Justin. I believe the same thing. Just because an armbar perfomed a certain way works on person A doesn't mean the same armbar will work on person B. The factors you mentioned seem plausible too.

But open legged arm bars can work depending on situation.

My speculation is just that Werdum is just used to doing his arm bar like that so he didn't feel the need to do it the way we think he needed to.

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I'm with you on this. I know how to do an omaplata, but some guys have much more flexible shoulders than others. As a result, I have to be that much more technically perfect with guy A than with guy B; the fraction of an inch I leave for guy B may be inconsequential on him whereas it's just enough to allow guy A to escape. Same thing with chokes. Some guys will tap to a sloppy triangle; other guys it has to be absolutely perfect or it's just not gonna happen. The higher level you go the tighter the tolerances become. If you want to armbar Vinnie, my guess is that you simply cannot leave him ANY room to move at all. Verdum obviously left him just enough room and we all saw the result.

I was so hammered last night i have zero recollection of my posts to Vinny....I'm glad they were intelligible...

Are you fucking joking? Get the fuck outta here Sellotape