Did Police "Choke" NY Man to Death? (Gracie Breakdown)

I just posted his opinion. That's all. I'm with you!

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

I'd like to hear what a law enforcement officer has to say. Maybe I'm not up to date on acceptable takedown methods, but I don't beleive the choke hold is one of those acceptable moves.

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I was going to stay out of this, but decided to give my prospective from a retired law enforcement officer point of view. I medically retired in April with 15 years of service, 5 with a Sheriff’s department and 10 on a federal tactical team. Also for 11 of those years I was a defensive tactics instructor. I will give you a very sterile black and white view. I am not going to approve or disapprove of the actions of the officers. I was not there, I don’t know the level of their training, I don’t know their department’s use of force continuum, etc. It is very easy to arm chair quarterback a situation like this and I am choosing not to do that.
Officers are taught to operate off of a use of force continuum that operates in steps. Each level of force and the tactics that can be used at that level are dependent on the level of resistance offered by the subject being taken into custody. Generally the levels of resistance/techniques that can be used are: verbal noncompliance and passive resistance /come along techniques, pepper spray, tazers ; defensive resistance/joint locks and takedown techniques; active resistance/baton and striking techniques; and aggravated active resistance/deadly force. Then there are mitigating factors that also contribute to what level of force is justified by the officer, like size mismatch, perceived threats, or even past use of force history with the individual.
To answer your question about the LVNR (lateral vascular neck restraint), or as you put choke, is taught as a takedown method by some departments. This technique is placed at different levels of force by different departments. Some place its use low and others much higher. The departments I worked for placed the LVNR at the deadly force level, but others place it as a takedown technique. When used as a control tactic, you are not putting the squeezing pressure on, you are just controlling the body.
Here is something else to think about. We are all here on this forum because of jiu jitsu. We all train and most of us quite often. Now imagine you only get to train twice a year for 8 hours (if you are lucky). How proficient do you think your jiu jitsu would be? The reality is law enforcement training budgets suck, and they are also some of the first things to get cut, and the skill sets that that they need to call upon are perishable skills. I don’t know what specifically caused this mans death, nor am I trying to rationalize or justify it. Was it improper technique? Was it Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome (SICDS), or Positional Asphyxia (you can google those and do your own research)? Was it negligence? I don’t know and I won’t make assumptions.

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Originally Posted by tobyshell

I was going to stay out of this, but decided to give my prospective from a retired law enforcement officer point of view. I medically retired in April with 15 years of service, 5 with a Sheriff’s department and 10 on a federal tactical team. Also for 11 of those years I was a defensive tactics instructor. I will give you a very sterile black and white view. I am not going to approve or disapprove of the actions of the officers. I was not there, I don’t know the level of their training, I don’t know their department’s use of force continuum, etc. It is very easy to arm chair quarterback a situation like this and I am choosing not to do that.
Officers are taught to operate off of a use of force continuum that operates in steps. Each level of force and the tactics that can be used at that level are dependent on the level of resistance offered by the subject being taken into custody. Generally the levels of resistance/techniques that can be used are: verbal noncompliance and passive resistance /come along techniques, pepper spray, tazers ; defensive resistance/joint locks and takedown techniques; active resistance/baton and striking techniques; and aggravated active resistance/deadly force. Then there are mitigating factors that also contribute to what level of force is justified by the officer, like size mismatch, perceived threats, or even past use of force history with the individual.
To answer your question about the LVNR (lateral vascular neck restraint), or as you put choke, is taught as a takedown method by some departments. This technique is placed at different levels of force by different departments. Some place its use low and others much higher. The departments I worked for placed the LVNR at the deadly force level, but others place it as a takedown technique. When used as a control tactic, you are not putting the squeezing pressure on, you are just controlling the body.
Here is something else to think about. We are all here on this forum because of jiu jitsu. We all train and most of us quite often. Now imagine you only get to train twice a year for 8 hours (if you are lucky). How proficient do you think your jiu jitsu would be? The reality is law enforcement training budgets suck, and they are also some of the first things to get cut, and the skill sets that that they need to call upon are perishable skills. I don’t know what specifically caused this mans death, nor am I trying to rationalize or justify it. Was it improper technique? Was it Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome (SICDS), or Positional Asphyxia (you can google those and do your own research)? Was it negligence? I don’t know and I won’t make assumptions.

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holy crap thanks... Use of force continuum is huge in situations like these.

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Originally Posted by tobyshell

I was going to stay out of this, but decided to give my prospective from a retired law enforcement officer point of view. I medically retired in April with 15 years of service, 5 with a Sheriff’s department and 10 on a federal tactical team. Also for 11 of those years I was a defensive tactics instructor. I will give you a very sterile black and white view. I am not going to approve or disapprove of the actions of the officers. I was not there, I don’t know the level of their training, I don’t know their department’s use of force continuum, etc. It is very easy to arm chair quarterback a situation like this and I am choosing not to do that.
Officers are taught to operate off of a use of force continuum that operates in steps. Each level of force and the tactics that can be used at that level are dependent on the level of resistance offered by the subject being taken into custody. Generally the levels of resistance/techniques that can be used are: verbal noncompliance and passive resistance /come along techniques, pepper spray, tazers ; defensive resistance/joint locks and takedown techniques; active resistance/baton and striking techniques; and aggravated active resistance/deadly force. Then there are mitigating factors that also contribute to what level of force is justified by the officer, like size mismatch, perceived threats, or even past use of force history with the individual.
To answer your question about the LVNR (lateral vascular neck restraint), or as you put choke, is taught as a takedown method by some departments. This technique is placed at different levels of force by different departments. Some place its use low and others much higher. The departments I worked for placed the LVNR at the deadly force level, but others place it as a takedown technique. When used as a control tactic, you are not putting the squeezing pressure on, you are just controlling the body.
Here is something else to think about. We are all here on this forum because of jiu jitsu. We all train and most of us quite often. Now imagine you only get to train twice a year for 8 hours (if you are lucky). How proficient do you think your jiu jitsu would be? The reality is law enforcement training budgets suck, and they are also some of the first things to get cut, and the skill sets that that they need to call upon are perishable skills. I don’t know what specifically caused this mans death, nor am I trying to rationalize or justify it. Was it improper technique? Was it Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome (SICDS), or Positional Asphyxia (you can google those and do your own research)? Was it negligence? I don’t know and I won’t make assumptions.

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That was super informative. I appreciate the info. It does help shed some light on the situation. It also breaks my heart to know that police training is underfunded.

Law enforcement is the only "profession" that claims the right to initiate violence on peaceful people who have harmed no one else. If you owe the government or they merely think you may own them money, they will fuck you up to get that revenue.

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Originally Posted by tobyshell

I was going to stay out of this, but decided to give my prospective from a retired law enforcement officer point of view. I medically retired in April with 15 years of service, 5 with a Sheriff’s department and 10 on a federal tactical team. Also for 11 of those years I was a defensive tactics instructor. I will give you a very sterile black and white view. I am not going to approve or disapprove of the actions of the officers. I was not there, I don’t know the level of their training, I don’t know their department’s use of force continuum, etc. It is very easy to arm chair quarterback a situation like this and I am choosing not to do that.
Officers are taught to operate off of a use of force continuum that operates in steps. Each level of force and the tactics that can be used at that level are dependent on the level of resistance offered by the subject being taken into custody. Generally the levels of resistance/techniques that can be used are: verbal noncompliance and passive resistance /come along techniques, pepper spray, tazers ; defensive resistance/joint locks and takedown techniques; active resistance/baton and striking techniques; and aggravated active resistance/deadly force. Then there are mitigating factors that also contribute to what level of force is justified by the officer, like size mismatch, perceived threats, or even past use of force history with the individual.
To answer your question about the LVNR (lateral vascular neck restraint), or as you put choke, is taught as a takedown method by some departments. This technique is placed at different levels of force by different departments. Some place its use low and others much higher. The departments I worked for placed the LVNR at the deadly force level, but others place it as a takedown technique. When used as a control tactic, you are not putting the squeezing pressure on, you are just controlling the body.
Here is something else to think about. We are all here on this forum because of jiu jitsu. We all train and most of us quite often. Now imagine you only get to train twice a year for 8 hours (if you are lucky). How proficient do you think your jiu jitsu would be? The reality is law enforcement training budgets suck, and they are also some of the first things to get cut, and the skill sets that that they need to call upon are perishable skills. I don’t know what specifically caused this mans death, nor am I trying to rationalize or justify it. Was it improper technique? Was it Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome (SICDS), or Positional Asphyxia (you can google those and do your own research)? Was it negligence? I don’t know and I won’t make assumptions.

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Very good, insightful post, thanks for sharing.

Reading your point on budgets, it's disappointing how self defence training is so limited, considering that would (should?) be the primary form/option of defence for officers. I mean, without some serious confidence in your martial art(s), pulling out that taser or gun just seems all the more likely (honestly, if I trained martial arts for only 8 - 16 hours a YEAR, I'd probably never want to engage another human being with only my hands and legs). If anything, this is one thing that has to change (at a top level).

I could only imagine that simply being required to train BJJ for a minimum 1 hour per week would be helpful to keep these guys at peace, in shape, and confident in their hand to hand enought to avoid escalating things so quickly.

Choke hold by cop killed NY man, medical examiner says


http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/01/justic...ath/index.html

It was the knee on back. Damn near positive.

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Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge

Choke hold by cop killed NY man, medical examiner says


http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/01/justic...ath/index.html

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PBA slams medical examiner’s report on Eric Garner's death: ‘It is not a chokehold’

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...#ixzz39a9lUHi9