How to have an impeccable guard game.

Thanks for the responses. I forgot I posted this.

Liquid Rob,

I think that you do have a perspective on gi training that should be considered but the implications of what you advance seem to me to be that:

1. The training methodology of 10th Planet JJ is flawed, incomplete or not as efficient as it could be by avoiding use of the gi as a training tool.

2. Eddie can either not see this or can and is wilfully refusing to adopt use of the gi for ideological reasons to the detriment of his students.

3. Other no gi instructors are also failing to appreciate the benefits of the gi and therefore arguably failing their students whose guard game -if nothing else- would be improved by use of the gi.

I tend to be of the view- like Brian I think- that it is better to train under the conditions that you will meet and to perfect exactly the same movements you will actually employ which of course is hard enough.

I personally do not think that my guard game is any better for having started in the gi although I appreciate that your view is different.

In so far as there may be a benefit to your guard game my suspicion is that this may simply be the result of having to spend a lot more time in the position due to the gi restricting movement rather than the use of the gi itself.

I suppose that it is for those more advanced and who have instructed to pronounce upon the methodology you have advanced from their experince of teaching and perhaps for Eddie to comment on the remarks of JJM.

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

So.... once again I'm going to comment on the no-gi vs gi thing. The best way to get good at a thing is do that thing. That's hard wired into our DNA. Wanna get good at a certain guard? Do that guard. There can be carry over from other things for sure (ex. working your butterfly guard could improve your x-guard but not as much as working x-guard would. The reason you work butterfly guard is to get good at butterfly guard. Then maybe you can use it to set up your X-guard, but as far as being in X-guard and working from there, the fastest improvement will always be to work from there). Same applies to the gi.

As far as this garbage about "you must (insert claim)", I'll just say that NOT training in the gi has been the edge that I have used to achieve my competitive success and I have almost never gotten my guard passed in competition, not even by good black belt...

There has also been several gi black belts I've watched get repeatedly schooled by my blue belts in the last few months, and oddly enough, its usually their guard (and leg lock defense) that is the most lacking.


Keep training my friend, you'll gravitate to certain guards naturally, don't stress to much about "you must do this or that" just enjoy the journey my friend :)

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You're a gangster, Brian Debes. I feel that this is very accurate

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Originally Posted by Peterm

1. The training methodology of 10th Planet JJ is flawed, incomplete or not as efficient as it could be by avoiding use of the gi as a training tool.

2. Eddie can either not see this or can and is wilfully refusing to adopt use of the gi for ideological reasons to the detriment of his students.

3. Other no gi instructors are also failing to appreciate the benefits of the gi and therefore arguably failing their students whose guard game -if nothing else- would be improved by use of the gi.

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I'm going to quote Eddie. Just this once. It may be cliche, but it's by far the most profound statement I've ever heard'em say, and I consider myself the same. He said this directly to Rickson Gracie:

I'm jiu jitsu pureblood.

Now. If he considers himself as such, I would imagine that his thinking would come from the fact that he came from JJM, an avid gi practitioner. The gi is invariably traced back to the lineage, of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Japanese Jiu Jitsu. The 10th planet system has extended the timeline, without a doubt. Anyone coming out of the tenth planet system that doesn't train gi is still part of the lineage. It just happens to be a different branch from the same tree trunk. Is it pure blood? Sure. Or half-blood. Alright, three-quarter blood. That's as far as I'll take it. Whatever. It's all silly.

There would need to be non-biased, laboratory studies of gi guards and no-gi guards, side-by-side comparisons, competition results of big time gi guys vs. big time no-gi guys to accurately determine which guard would be better to train. Doesn't it make sense that you 'get good at what you do'? That whatever guard you wish to obtain need only be drilled constantly for it to happen? Or a fair point being made that gi presents several different problems and thus overcompensates in improving your guard? On that token, look at the certifiable proof that we're witnessing of break dancers coming in and destroying jiu jitsu heads cuz of their overcompensation for good body control. Jiu jitsu is nothing to them. An argument can be made that a no-gi guard recovery is nothing to a guy used to having his knee pant smashed and his lapels pinned. A clean granby roll is a welcome relief.

All food for thought. But no-gi guys, remember. Talking crap about the gi is talking crap about your ancestors.:) And strictly gi guys that talk crap, I mean think of how lame it'd be if your grandparents or parents talked crap about you. That's basically all this is. Politics. But at the end of the day, there is no substitute for the most precious asset we have on this Earth, and that is time. Mat time. No substitute. People should be allies, w/ no enemies. Gi to no-gi. Switzerland of jiu-jitsu. oss

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

Talking crap about the gi is talking crap about your ancestors. And strictly gi guys that talk crap, I mean think of how lame it'd be if your grandparents or parents talked crap about you.

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Your perspective is spot on. Maybe someday a guy who's well respected enough by BOTH the gi and no gi communities (c'mon Marcelo!) to get them receptive to the idea that it's just ALL jiu jitsu and it's all related and can/will/has to evolve whether it's from the main tree, new branch, a branch branching off a branch, a new sapling?! You get the point. It'll happen eventually. Maybe some 10th Planet superstar will marry an affluent Gracie down the road and make 10th Planet/Gracie ultra-babies? Who knows.

Im down with that Arman. And honestly the way we develop skill gi to no gi probably varies from individual to individual. I have no doubt that the gi has helped some practicioners develop no gi movement. But at the same time you could grasp and understand concepts in a completely different way training just no gi and be just as effective. I personally just started cross training in the gi once or twice a week (mostly just for a new challenge and to have more matches at tournaments, its also a lot of fun and different I'll admit) and I havent noticed any benefit YET. But I'm sure it takes a lot of time so I'm not discounting it. It all comes down to what helps you understand your own body movements

IMO, to be a complete grappler you should train both Gi and No Gi, but you don't have to of course, goes the same for Gi only guys

They both have strengths and weaknesses, and benefits from training both that can't be replicated when strictly doing one or the other. Fo Gi bjj the biggest thing I see is the guard passing/guard retention battle. It just makes sense that you will have a better guard training Gi mostly against quality passers who are great at gripping, controlling, pinning your legs, hips, etc...

Just look at it this way, what's harder to retain your guard from? Someone grabbing a handful or 2 of your pants when leg dragging you or just grabbing your ankle? The amount of leg dexterity, hip movement, inverting or whatever will be so much more than No Gi, it really can't be argued

The problem with No Gi is you don't get the amount of time to battle like that from thes equipment positions, you don't have as great of a battle fighting off someone stabilizing a pass who has you Gi, it gets ingrained in you how to react and fight off the passes, its not the same battle No Gi

Once the Gi comes off you will notice how much easier it is to fight off passes, create spaces, roll, invert, etc...like I said, it's a tool

On the flip side, I can list the benefits of No Gi training compared to Gi training, but this was a guard thread, it goes both ways

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Originally Posted by Liquidrob

On the flip side, I can list the benefits of No Gi training compared to Gi training, but this was a guard thread, it goes both ways

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Do you find that not being used to the slipperiness of no gi a hard thing to adapt to for mostly gi guys? One thing I noticed is my armbars are much tighter in the gi because of the friction and therefore harder to slip out of. But when the gi comes off, the squeeze and finish has to be a lot tighter. As far as defending that same arm bar goes, if you're used to having to fight your way out of it with the added friction, I think you definitely would be more able to defend a no gi armbar. So I do think there is some merit to the defense theory. I'm all ears, even though I've heard the debate a million times I'm interested on everyone's take to it from person to person

In mat time we trust