Spin Side Kick vs Spin Back Kick

Fact: The plural of "beef" is "beeves"...mind blowing!

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Originally Posted by Jason Mallory

I posted some details about the kick based on observations and the experience of people at the highest level of the art.

Testing in a controlled environment would not prove anything either way. For example, if we measure how hard a person can kick with the knee up verses the knee down he would probably kick harder with the knee up if he is more familiar with that way of kicking. Another person being tested could have the opposite results if they are more familiar with the knee down way of doing the kick.

Testing and comparing two different people wouldn't prove anything either. There was a 'fight science' tv show, I don't remember what it was called but they compared a TKD guy, a Thai Boxer, a Capoeira dude and a Karate guy. They measured their kicking power and the order of power in the kicks was 1. Capoeira 2. TKD 3. Thai Boxer 4. Karate. It didn't prove anything because the people were all at different skill levels, ages, fitness levels etc... within their respective arts.

You know as well as I do that there is a big difference in the level between Judo down at the YMCA and the guys training with Jimmy Pedro. The same thing is true for TKD. As I said before, I haven't really heard anyone explain these ideas outside of TKD before.

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You didnt preface your comments with "based on my observation ". You posted them as facts, and until proven otherwise, they are merely opinion.

1000% disagree that testing wouldn't prove anything. Controlled setting means all things being equal, skill and technique alike. Almost all tv shows are skewed for ratings and almost imediately disqualifies them from any type of legit testing.


Who is talking about YMCA level Judoka? I stated specifically the Olympians I worked with. I taught for nearly 10 years at a international Judo training camp that had several Olympians from multiple countries attend.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

You didnt preface your comments with "based on my observation ". You posted them as facts, and until proven otherwise, they are merely opinion.

1000% disagree that testing wouldn't prove anything. Controlled setting means all things being equal, skill and technique alike. Almost all tv shows are skewed for ratings and almost imediately disqualifies them from any type of legit testing.


Who is talking about YMCA level Judoka? I stated specifically the Olympians I worked with. I taught for nearly 10 years at a international Judo training camp that had several Olympians from multiple countries attend.

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Then I guess we can agree to disagree.

As far as turning back kicks go, there are three main types in my experience:
Mule kick, Side kick, Hook kick.

All three can be done turning or spinning but they are all very different in their delivery, impact and in how you defend them.

I can't see video but what you're describing to me (Knee down turning kick) sounds like what we called a "Turning Mule kick". If so, you would be turning and kicking straight back with your back turned to the opponent and your toes pointed towards the ground with your heel making contact in an upward direction. Is that what you're talking about?

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Originally Posted by Kurzy

As far as turning back kicks go, there are three main types in my experience:
Mule kick, Side kick, Hook kick.

All three can be done turning or spinning but they are all very different in their delivery, impact and in how you defend them.

I can't see video but what you're describing to me (Knee down turning kick) sounds like what we called a "Turning Mule kick". If so, you would be turning and kicking straight back with your back turned to the opponent and your toes pointed towards the ground with your heel making contact in an upward direction. Is that what you're talking about?

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Yeah... we just called it a back kick. I think the Korean name is actually dwichagi.

A tutorial would be great, looks like a great kick, I am sure it has its place.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

You didnt preface your comments with "based on my observation ".

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Originally Posted by Jason Mallory

After hearing him speak with Kirik about it on his podcast I felt like sharing some ideas about it.

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The intention came across pretty clear to me. Thanks for first clarifying why you're able to talk on the subject and then sharing your ideas Jason. I hadn't known about the knee down version and how high level TKD had switched over to it.

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Originally Posted by Ben Eddy

The intention came across pretty clear to me. Thanks for first clarifying why you're able to talk on the subject and then sharing your ideas Jason. I hadn't known about the knee down version and how high level TKD had switched over to it.

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"The ‘knee down’ kick is faster
The ‘knee down’ kick is less telegraphed
The ‘knee down’ kick is harder to counter
The ‘knee down’ kick is more powerful"

fact definition: what is fact: something known to have happened or to exist.

Its sure sounds like it was stated as fact to me. Not to mention he goes to to explain why they are fact.

I'm thinking that the OTC changed to the knee down version around 88 or 89. We had half the team doing it that way or reluctantly switching. It's not technically the mule kick as there's slightly a different angle. It did lend itself to easily transitioning towards the fade away side kick, jump fade, and jump spinning fade, as well as the soon added hook into the same sequence.

I did the knee up version for a while after seeing the Rogan video, but over time it turned into the back kick. For me it's quicker, less telegraphed, and I can go higher by leaning back more.