Why aren't the top grapplers better on the feet?

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Originally Posted by David Stager

Stop me if you've heard this one before: A couple of elite grapplers square off against each other at a tournament, both apparently renowned for their prowess on the mats. The match begins and they tentatively stare at each other; a protracted hand-fight ensues, followed by some ineffectual tie-ups, from which both grapplers promptly disengage. This goes on for at least four minutes. Every now and then a genuine takedown is attempted only to be interrupted when the competitors step out of bounds and are reset in a neutral position. Finally, someone completes a takedown with a minute left in the match and holds on for dear life until it's over. Alternatively, no takedown is scored, but someone gets an advantage or two for making an effort.

Now, I haven't been to any college wrestling matches, so I'm not sure this is the norm, but my instinct tells me this sad state of affairs is limited mostly to submission grappling tournaments. The heavier weight classes are particularly egregious, but I see a lot of dancing around and avoiding from the lighter guys too.

Why???? It is so painfully boring to watch, and frankly it shouldn't be happening. If you're the bomb on the ground, but your standup is weak, then PULL GUARD. You're just rolling the dice, at best, if you keep it on the feet. And if you don't like pulling guard or the rules penalize you for it, fine. But at least set something up. How much are you really accomplishing by slapping at your opponent's wrists and pushing away when it gets too close for comfort?

For some perspective, watch this Jacare vs. Saulo Ribeiro match (if you can stomach it):

http://dai.ly/cZ6Wdj

Now watch Matt Hughes vs. Tito Ortiz to see how a standup battle is supposed to look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22SMJSiL2j4

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LOL this match was a work and they were both banned from ADCC. But I agree in a lot of cases. A lot of top, top guys like Cobrinha, Garcia, Galvao, Xande, Roger, Calasans, Popovitch, have great Judo and/or wrestling.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

LOL this match was a work and they were both banned from ADCC. But I agree in a lot of cases. A lot of top, top guys like Cobrinha, Garcia, Galvao, Xande, Roger, Calasans, Popovitch, have great Judo and/or wrestling.

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I heard that the Hughes vs. Jeremy Horn match was a work, but this is the first time I've heard the same about the Hughes/Ortiz match. And it seems like an especially well-choreographed work if that is in fact the case.

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Originally Posted by David Stager

So how often do you guys train takedowns? We practice shots and sprawls every class, but drilling is a different story. From what I've gathered it's a lot easier to get injured when drilling takedowns, plus there's not always enough room on the mats, and there's always sooooo much to learn on the ground besides.

Still, I would expect that high-level BJJ guys would train their wrestling and judo as well. They really don't have an excuse.

I agree that the ADCC rules are the best I've seen so far, but they still don't guarantee action. Some guys are just dying to score points, so they stall the first five minutes.

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We usually do about ten minutes of takedowns at the beginning of every class. Grab a partner and go over what take down you wanna work on. I don't see why anybody wouldn't want to be able to take their opponent down. Pulling guard for me is an absolute last resort. I work on wrestling but I much prefer judo. I think being able to throw somebody regardless of how big they are is just a beautiful thing.

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Originally Posted by Nate Harris

We usually do about ten minutes of takedowns at the beginning of every class. Grab a partner and go over what take down you wanna work on. I don't see why anybody wouldn't want to be able to take their opponent down. Pulling guard for me is an absolute last resort. I work on wrestling but I much prefer judo. I think being able to throw somebody regardless of how big they are is just a beautiful thing.

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It's definitely a beautiful thing, but after getting tossed around like a ragdoll in one tournament, a couple of people advised me against going for the takedown. I ended up pulling guard from the get-go at the next tournament and won both my matches. Eventually, guard-pulling will be a last resort for me too, but only after I start training takedowns with a partner.

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Originally Posted by David Stager

I heard that the Hughes vs. Jeremy Horn match was a work, but this is the first time I've heard the same about the Hughes/Ortiz match. And it seems like an especially well-choreographed work if that is in fact the case.

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OOOPS, I thought Hughes/Horn is what you posted. My bad

It just comes down to optimum game strategies within a rule set. Without an ippon rule in effect, the lesser throwing practitioner will usually be incentivized to shoot low or to just pull guard.

I personally don't like training without takedowns but in a competitive situation I really can't blame people for wanting to keep the match safely within their strengths.