Finally met John Danaher yesterday after the UFC

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Originally Posted by Jeff K

I'm curious what you think about Marcelo Garcia's statement that he trains in the gi every day (no gi once a week) and considers the gi, in his words, "crucial" to developing good technique.

(Note that I'm talking about no-gi grappling, not necessarily mma).

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The attempt of an objective conversation on this debate always gets bogged down with name dropping and rank pulling. Though that may be Marcelo's opinion, he still has to explain it logically for it to carry weight. Throwing his hat in the ring and pointing at his belt for validity doesn't equate to a logical objective explanation.

If Marcelo would say exactly why the gi improves your no gi grappling, then we would actually have a discussion. At the moment, it's just his rhetorical statement with no defense.

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

The attempt of an objective conversation on this debate always gets bogged down with name dropping and rank pulling. Though that may be Marcelo's opinion, he still has to explain it logically for it to carry weight. Throwing his hat in the ring and pointing at his belt for validity doesn't equate to a logical objective explanation.

If Marcelo would say exactly why the gi improves your no gi grappling, then we would actually have a discussion. At the moment, it's just his rhetorical statement with no defense.

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Good point. I wasn't implying "Marcelo said so, therefore it must be true" - only curious what you guys thought considering he's such an accomplished no gi grappler. But I speculate his reasons are probably similar to the ones argued in articles like this: http://www.mmaforreal.com/2010/1/25/...spective-gi-vs

Some quotes:

"Let's start with does the gi make you more technical? Yes. Why? Because the gi serves to level off other attributes. Strength, speed, and scrambling ability can all be limited or negated by controling the gi.

The gi does a tremendous job of teaching defense. Training with the gi gives the offensive person a huge advantage in his attacks. He can control your entire arm with one hand and your entire body with two. This forces you to become very skilled at escaping positions and submissions. Additionally, the gi will drastically improve your hip movement in the guard. When your opponent can control your pants to facilitate your passing, you learn the importance of hip movement and positioning to defend the pass.

No gi on the other hand drastically improves your offense and control. It can be very difficult to control an explosive and sweaty opponent without anything to hold onto. No gi training forces you to learn the art of body positioning and weight distribution. It teaches you to position your hips exactly right so that your opponent can not pull his arm out of the arm bar and to control the bottom person's hips so that you can pass his guard."


My experience as someone who trains both gi and no gi confirms this as well.

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Originally Posted by Jeff K

I'm curious what you think about Marcelo Garcia's statement that he trains in the gi every day (no gi once a week) and considers the gi, in his words, "crucial" to developing good technique.

(Note that I'm talking about no-gi grappling, not necessarily mma).

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I don't believe the hype. Many sports have gone through myth and transitions before, even those perpetuated by the greatest of that sport. Like sex is no good for sports, while some scientific evidence points in the opposite direction. Correct my if I am wrong, but I recall Michael Jordan and Kobe had differing philosophies on basketball.

Then you have no gi guys whom don't train at all in the gi, ripping through guys at high level who train more than 70 percent in the gi. I think the Avalon brothers have a very good record against the highest level gi guys.

Gi is a great tool for learning as it both slows your game down and increases your awareness, but it's not the only tool.

Which Avalon brothers? Thanks.

Marcelo's, NYC school, trains Gi...mon., wed., fri. and no-gi...tues., thurs., sat. according to the schedule. Eddie once said Marcelo trains 2 hours gi and 2 hours no-gi a day.

TTT! I think if the genius of Eddie Bravo and John Danaher spend significant time together discussing Jiu Jitsu, the world may in fact reach Nirvana.

Super cool!

I guess I'll respond with my naive opinion (what else is the internet for?).

I'm a huge Dave Camarillo fan, but his logic falls under a weird presumption. The idea that athleticism can get you out of no gi submissions is true, if your opponent is a gi grappler. The unacclimatized gi grappler will use the same wrist control setups for their submissions, while typically resorting to a basic behind the head grip for posture control. The escape occurs not because of power and explosiveness, but because the posture control of your standard wrist and head grips are weak.

I have Dave's book and many of his modified no gi grips are just wrist/arm and head control. Using the back of the head where he would have used the collar of the gi. For this setup, yes judo gi training would help because you would have crazy kung fu grip (Dave explains this theory in his book), which would translate to your no gi grip game for those similar setups.

Secondly, the type of defense you learn while wearing the gi is mostly relevant to the gi. When I roll in my gi, I mentally remind myself to protect my lapel and neck. This lesson contributes absolutely nothing to my gi game.

There was also another comment about how fighting pant grips makes your hips better. That just sounds kind of silly, especially since wrestlers seem to have the craziest base and hips out of all of the grapplers I've seen.