Which is what makes his takedowns so high percentage. His ability to get to the hips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Smith
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Which is what makes his takedowns so high percentage. His ability to get to the hips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Smith
Here is the article. He talks about his timing and his ability to get in to the hips comes from karate. He says his wrestling is utilized after he gets the leg.
http://www.mmatorch.com/artman2/publ...le_16610.shtml
Now obviously he is a good wrestler, but karate plays a huge part of what he does that most people would just call wrestling.
I think it's pretty safe to say that his jj plays a roll in his ground game as well.
I guess my point is, the more complete the fighter, the better every attribute he has becomes. As the sport evolves maybe we will see some crazy jiu jitsu hybrid fighter that uses multiple martial arts to make his jj work the way gsp puts everything together to make his wrestling work.
Something to look forward to for sure :)
Good post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
Gsp is not a wrestler. Gsp is a mixed martial artist. Cyborg Abreu won a national wrestling championship and he barely knew the rules. Cyborg is not a wrestler. Wrestlers don't fight to stifle guards. Gsp is not a wrestler. He's a mixed martial artist. He is dominating opponents with BJJ. He's able to get it to the ground with wrestling. He mixes it together. Mixed martial artist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge
It is sad that more BJJ players haven't adapted their games to MMA. But factoring the years of him trying to be Andy Hug is a weak ass argument, Jack. Damian has proven that bjj is very dangerous when employed. He tooled Sonnen like a white belt. His two losses to wrestlers were kickboxing matches that he didn't even try to take to the ground. But his last three performances are great examples. All three against serious wrestlers. You should watch them and not just use irrelevant finish stats.Quote:
Is Maia the best example you guys can come up with? Sad. Maia has only 1 submission win since 2009. Losing twice to 2 wrestlers also. But I do understand the point you were making. Eddie talks about it all the time. The next generation of fighters will be great at every aspect of fighting. Less specialist, just complete warriors!
Yes it's that huge of a win. Tell me who has ever dominated Fitch? GSP. A Hendricks left hand. Maia. And the fight didn't hit the ground. Maia forced it there. And he hept it there. Yes it's that huge of a win.Quote:
Maia vs. Fitch fight I keep hearing about. If that fight hits the ground I would expect Maia to dominate Fitch. So is it really that huge of a win. Of course its mma and these things don't always happen. Maia is a multiple time World Champion in bjj. Fitch, a walk on at a d1 college, ends his college wrestling career with a losing record. Gets his bjj bb in 5 years. Of all the former wrestlers (mma)that have a black belts in bjj. Fitch is the only one I consider a true jiu jitsu guy over his wrestling. IMO Fitch is not elite in wrestling or bjj. I'll pick the adcc champ on the ground. I'm just rambling at this point
If a boxer can KO a Muay Thai guy in Muay Thai rules, it doesn't make them a great Muay Thai guy. And I disagree. He may be using wrestling to take it down, but it's all BJJ on the ground.Quote:
If you can take down a National Wrestling Champion at will. You are a great Wrestler! I don't care if its karate timing its still a Wraslin move!!! Again he's not dominating his opponents with his bjj.;)
Haha no not at all. I would think Alan would have more integrity than that. Just with the way he is pushing it so hard, the constant spamming of emails etc, it kinda feels like a Lloyd Irvin/Avellan product. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Gammel
ToucheQuote:
Originally Posted by sean applegate
#3rdOption #pullguard #pullhalf #pullquarter #pullbutterfly #pullguillotine
My 2 pennies worth... If your a bb of Vinnies calibre, try to get the fight to the ground anyway you can. Personally I wouldn't have been content to lose a kickboxing match if I had Vinnies credentials. I would liked to have seen more effort in dragging the fight to the ground one way or another.
As for BJJ in MMA, it is simple... not enough people Mastering The System, available for only $5 a month at 10thplanetjj.com :cool:
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Bodmon
Marketing is marketing. LI's douchebaggery doesn't nullify marketing tactics that may or may not be silimair to the tactics he used. Lets not forget that the marketing strategies existed before LI was using them. He learned them from somewhere else.
Lumping everyone into the same catagory and judging them for using the same successful marketing strategies that LI used is as silly as lumping anyone into the same catagory because they wear the same kind of pants that LI wears.
Who is lumping him in the same category as Lloyd Irvin? I just said the marketing felt the same, which it does. Just my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurzy
I certainly never implied Alan is the same kind of guy as that piece of shit Lloyd. That is completely taking my words out of context. I like Alan Belcher. Have stated that many times.
I will however agree that the 'marketing tactics' Lloyd has been using have been used for years. Long before Lloyd and the rest of his con artist buddies come along. However IMO spamming the absolute shit out of your fans certainly isn't the way to go.
Like I say, just my opinion. :)
I hear you on the spamming. I noticed the Belcher emails stopped after the loss against Michael. I still want the DVD set though!
yes he is probably going to want to remove the "And watch him CRUSH Michael Bisping in the UFC 159 co-main event on April 27th" bit off his site too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurzy
I hated the whole 'bashthebrit' thing he tried to get going too. I honestly think Alan got so caught up in the pre-fight banter, immunity etc, he just wasn't on his game at all. Hopefully he doesn't get cut. That is 2 in a row now right?
As a mma fighter, you have a lot of people in your ear at all times telling you, what works and what doesn't, what should be done and what shouldn't. Good hands can neutralize a kickboxer, and good sub game can defeat a wrestler, good wrestling can stifle bjj. Leg kicks can stop a boxer. What has been brought up earlier in the thread is the problem: lack of faith and it is disturbing. Phil Davis didn't have faith in his wrestling, but had it for his hands (he obviously worked hard) Vinny had no faith in hands or ground. And what was belcher to do? jump truck? flying twister maybe? That was a thai vs boxer fight that looked like a rough and rowdy contender vs a WBC champ. Everyone does have plan till they get punched in the face. It's what you do mentally after getting blasted in the face that decides fate!
All great arguments, I agree with if main aspect of your game is boxing you box, if your game is Ju-Jitsu you don't box with a dude who had great hands, you pull guard do anything to bring your opponent into your world. Vinny unfortunatly gased almost instantly, where Davis capitalised with his jab and cardio, weight cuts are a mother fucker I walk around at 190 and fight at 170, I've had 3 fights and holy shit did it affect me, I felt like shit man, but I stuck to my game and came out on top! not saying I'm anywhere near these guys level but still..even amateurs know to stick to specific plan.
Agree 100% with what you say bro.
There is a huge stigma about pulling guard in MMA, guys will not do it just because of how the fans react, great grapplers would rather "Stand and Bang" and lose than be the guy who pulled guard, that's why I love watching Aoki, he does what he has to do to get the fight to the ground, by any means necessary
I could be wrong but I thought I saw Vinny try to pull at least a few times, but Phil would push him away and have the ref stand him up (going back to the point about the better ground guy being at a disadvantage, regardless of whether or not your guard is amazing, if you pull and the other guy stands and motions you to get up, the ref will stand you up). The biggest issue with continuing to do that is you can have an Anderson vs Maia situation and then there's a slim chance the judges will favour the buttscooter at all. I'm guessing you're referring to Belcher? I thought he had the option throughout the fight but really never tried, opting to instead try a couple takedowns that bisping stuffed easily. I think that despite all the smack talk, Belcher knew Bisping was no slouch on the ground either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrob
I'm talking in general, not even about Vinny or Belcher, put if you're the better grappled and want to fight on the ground and our getting out struck and can't take the guy down you need to do something different
Shoot and pull, jump guard, try and drag them down off the cage, roll for a leg, something to get it too the ground, you're already losing so try and get it to the ground
Obviously the other guy has skills also and is trying to keep it standing, Aoki really could t get Gil down, he pulled him down a couple times and Gil is good enough to get back up, so stuff like that happens, but Aoki did keep trying
No, I'm saying they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Sales
I got emails from Avellan about Belcher's DVDs -
I also asked Avellan if he was going to maintain his connection with TLI midst the recent allegations and never got a response.
I absolutely think they get this shit from Llimp.
This whole thing is the Lloyd Irvin strategy. Doesn't make it bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Gammel
But if there is any confusion, yes it's the same website and marketing strategy. Alan was a big advocate of Lloyd's before the shiz went down.
Lloyd Irvin Strategy in a nutshell:Quote:
Originally Posted by sean applegate
Find student (perferibly female)
Find out student dreams and goals
Use to dreams and goals to minipulate student
Rape said student.
Lloyd Irvin may have been a scumbag, but he was a brilliant marketer. Just because he is a turd doesn't mean his marketing strategies are bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Spalla
Alan belcher just made a ton of money off of this course using a strategy he learned from LI.
David Avellan did the same exact thing.
Cyborg did it too.
And Rafael lovato jr.
No shame in that.
Not saying he isn't a good marketer. Extremely intelligent man. I am glad he is giving people tools to make money in an industry where it is difficult to make money. While he had amazing success and great ideas, Jiu Jitsu is a lifestyle that enhances peoples character and gives them the confidence to achieve there potential on and off the mat. The minute he did what he did business or no business he shit all over the principals many martial artist live there lives by for what? Money? Steve Jobs was an innovator, ingenious, ahead of his time and admired by millions. Does not change that behind closed doors he was a world class asshole that worked his employees into the and exploited them to further promote his own brand. Just because Lloyd Irvin has a one good quality does not mean I will overlook that at his core he is a shitty human being. He can keep his marketing ideas. I am no way attacking you or your character Sean, I have a great deal of respect for everyone on this forum. I will just call an bag of shit a bag of shit I don't care how many Armani suits he wears or world titles he has won. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sean applegate
Nah brotha, I don't take anything on here personal :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Spalla
I agree completely about his character, but Alan and the people looking to market that way don't deserve to pay for Lloyd's mistakes is all I'm saying.
I didn't order the DVDs, but Alan's school is about an hour and a half from mine. I've met him several times and can attest to his legitimacy.
Lloyd is about a grade A turd. I think can all agree on that :)
http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/9/420...eting-trickery - Lloyd irvin, scammer. Dude has aligned himself with some of the biggest scammers out there. Not a single word he says can be trusted. :)
I would think Avellan is still aligned with LI. Didn't he name his child Lloyd? Or Irvin? Something like that. And LI is the kids godfather
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Gammel
Like I said before, the marketing strategies were around before LI was using them. The marketing strategies are just that: Marketing strategies. And they seem to work.
I want Avellan's Kimura trap set and I want Belchers Truck set. I just don't have cash. Otherwise I would have bought both.
Avellan's, because master Eddie said he was legit before I knew who he was, and Belchers, because he is obviously legit and I love the truck....
....but also partially due to the marketing I'm sure.
Anyways FUCK LI. We don't need to sully this thread with discussion about him.
Agreed. He is a stain on our sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurzy
Back on topic, respect to how Vinny handled the defeat. Very gracious. :)
Co-signed.Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneJitsu
How many subs do you have in mma?Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Patten
0. I have 0. Not sure how that's relevant though. Bored?
RightQuote:
Originally Posted by Justin Patten
Yes, they train jj. Alot and at a very high level. Now if you would elaborate on what seems to be a rhetorical question you would find relevance in mine. In short. Whats your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Patten
Lets just say I dont get bored. Ever.
It sort of makes your insult (disguised as a question) pretty moot then doesn't it? Both of them have unreal Jiu Jitsu, Bobby Rivers has great Jiu Jitsu, debate this with anyone of this forum...Don't worry I'll wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Patten
Can't grapple with someone that refuses to go to the ground
Bobby, you'll notice I don't have a lot of posts. The reason for that is that people like yourself like to come out of the woodwork and start shit just for the sake of cyber arguing. The reasons I believe that are A: I already elaborated on my question in response to the first person to reply to this thread. I agree that they are high level Jiu Jitsu guys. It is my opinion that if that is your strong point, maybe try to use it. In Frank's last fight and in Vinny's, neither man made even an attempt to take the fight to the ground. I understand not being able to do it. I do not understand not even trying. B: 90% of the posts in this thread agree with me. If they won't even make the attempt, what does that say to the world about the effectiveness of Jiu Jitsu n a fight? Or their confidence in their Jiu Jitsu? Removing your strong point from the fight is a clear disadvantage, no? Maybe read the thread first, Bro. Loosen up. Maybe have a coke and a smile. It's all gonna be ok.
I didnt come out of the woodwork, Im a mainstay. Don't be so defensive and post away. Words are but wind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Patten
If you calculated 90% agree, then I disagree with all of them as well. I have fought. I fought a wrestler that wanted to throw haymakers at me till I was twitching unconscious, and at that point in my career I couldn't take him down. I knew if I could just get this bastard to the ground I could quit dodging/absorbing overhand lefts and finish him. I was confident before the fight and that slowly melted as I realised I couldn't dictate my game. I eventually desperately pulled guard and lived happily ever after, but i was an eye opener. And this guy was faaar from world class, so I can empathise with a competitor that has a rough night. He needs to go back to the drawing bored and learn how to force the amazing jj he possesses, against an opponent, who is very capable of stopping him from doing so. Its not easy and doesnt mean jj sucks. The sport is evolving. The lack of faith shouldnt surprise me. Many quit believing when true adversity is before us. Like wrestlers and strikers beatin up jj guys.
Are you sure they never tried to get the fight down? Frank did, Cormier said 'nope'. Frank underestimated his olympic level wrestling. Vinny got Phil down and I thought the fight was over. It wasn't and Phil refused to let it happen again.
I read everything. I didnt attack you. I asked you a question. You didnt like it. I won't loosen up because space is your enemy when being offensive with jj. I prefer to stay tight as a snare drum. I only drink coke with lots of rum in it and you can best believe, I stay smilin :)
Between my 2000 posts on this forum and 2000 on the old roughly 133 were calling out armchair fighters. Nothing personal agaisnt you, just something I do.
Vinny is a forum member. I want him to know he's supported here win, lose, or draw.
Sean, whats 'right'?
Cool, man. Cool. Do your thing.......Watch out Sean. Looks like you're next in line.