I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
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I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
I'm not regularly training under anyone in the Gi. So when I drop in I bring a white belt and my current belt. I fully disclose my training experience and let the coach decide what rank I should wear under his roof. And that's 100% ok with me.
I've been told to wear a white belt before. No problem. More often than not I am told to wear my current rank.
I should add that I 100% agree that they are different games.
The average recreational player does not transfer well from one to the other.
When was the last time Eddie trained in the gi?Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
This gets weird. There's guys like rashad evans or jake shields who were given black belts in BJJ and they never really train with the Gi. So technically they are NoGi black belts but if they trained under eddie bravo, he would say they're brown belts? So does that mean a NoGi black belt is different from a 10th planet black belt?
Eddie doesn't need to wear the gi if he doesn't want to. Degrees on the black belt are awarded with time.
Mike your a black belt in no gi. Tell me, do you know three ways to escape this position and pass in the gi. Note, maybe you have gi experience so it could be a flawed test.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:...Riva_guard.jpg
calf crank!!
Jake Shields is a BJJ black belt under Caesar Gracie. He's not a NoGi black belt, you can't have much more of a legit lineage than that. Eddie's not a NoGi BB either, he's a BJJ BB under Machado. Rashad Evans is a Rolles Gracie BJJ BB (though admittedly people have questioned him getting a bb, that's beside the point). Everyone ranked under Eddie is a BJJ ____ belt and the lineage would be Mitsuyo Maeda → Carlos Gracie, Sr. → Carlos Gracie, Jr. → Jean Jacques Machado → Eddie Bravo --> You (whatever belt you are). Those are all BJJ lineages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin W.
Some people have killer top games, but less developed guard games. Some people are awesome at spider guard but have no mount. These are specialties, and they're important, just as a persons style can make them better suited for nogi, or for gi, but it's jits, and they're still BJJ lineages and belts.
De La Riva can be played Nogi with wrist control or other variations such as sitting up and hooking behind the knee instead of grabbing the heel.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
This is such a weird topic to be worrying about to me..
I'm all for a good debate but who cares what belt you're wearing as long as you're completely honest to the instructor you're visiting..If I put the white belt on, I'm not going to all of a sudden lose my knowledge. I just don't understand why this thread was even started...? Is it to solve some problem with a mass amount of no gi guys wearing their no gi rank? I have a feeling this topic will be forgotten as soon as it hits page 2 (of the main forum page) thus being a complete waste of thought. Maybe I'm just ignorant. Maybe this really is a big problem.
I'd just like to say that this is an awesome discussion. Brent, as someone with as much experience as you, its refreshing to hear your discussion points regarding gi vs nogi. I think that sometimes, no disrespect intended, people in the 10th planet system lose sight of how different gi vs nogi can be if you only exclusively train nogi, especially the more advanced you get. I will say, however, that plenty of nogi world champions are not exclusively training nogi all the time. In fact they train primarily gi, and then when its 'nogi season', they spend less time training as much gi and focus on being sharp without it on. Marcelo is an exception to the rule from what I see, but I correct me if I'm wrong. I've had the chance of training with and learning from a few guys who have medaled at the world or pan am level in gi and nogi who are either blues or purples. Although clearly they had one style they were better at (gi or nogi), for the most part, they came up doing mainly gi, then transitioned into embracing some nogi, and essentially applying very similar principles that they used in gi (ie, cross collar framing in gi is changed to grip on the trap to frame and set up attacks) into their nogi game to be successful. Darson Hemmings is a guy I've watched and learnt from who actually started with nogi, but as he got better he would apply gi techniques (ie. playing nogi spider guard, etc) to nogi grappling with incredible success. He has now transitioned into the gi realm, has only been training in the gi for a short period of time and has been medaling everywhere including winning the brown belt pan ams at his weight.
So personally, and my white belt opinion doesn't hold the greatest weight (but I figure I should say something definitive), I think if you do gi or nogi, at blue and max purple, overall your rank should automatically be recognized in both areas, but as Kurzy had mentioned, if you are say a brown belt, but have focused exclusively on being ranked in nogi only, you should be playing catchup because you earned a jiu jitsu black belt rank. Now I fully understand the situation people like you and Sean and Cade are in and I respect that you are trying to be students of the game. Maybe at the higher levels, if you have earned an exclusively nogi bjj rank, training in gi at a lower rank might make sense because of how different things are and the fact that you have treated them like two different arts, which in your development, they have been.
I hope nothing I've said has been disrespectful, I just really enjoyed reading what most of you had to say and wanted to chime in. Just for some background on myself so you know I'm not just trying to keyboard warrior it up, I began training exclusively nogi and have tried to play catchup in the gi to ensure that when I'm promoted I can represent my team and instructor well in both. I compete regularly in both to stay sharp, so I have some idea of what Brent is talking about, just obviously a white belts understanding :P
ps- Brandon, your theory on bringing a white and your current rank when visiting schools to be respectful is actually awesome.
Yes, I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
I understand there is a difference between gi and nogi jiu jitsu, but I will be a black belt whether Im wearing cotton pajamas or my sweet octopus spats whether my skill level in one or the other is up to a "black belt level" thats a whole other story.
I wear my blue belt in the gi, that is my current gi rank, I am back training the Gi for a couple months now after doing No Gi for a long time, its a big change
Its such a different sport, if some of you guys are hanging and beating much higher belts in the Gi without much Gi training you are rolling with the wrong guys or have a big physical advantage IMO
Trying to pass Spider guard and the Leg lasso without any knowledge of the gi is crazy hard, trying to escape side control and defend your neck with a guy going for baseball chokes, bread cutters, brabos, etc...the mount, stopping collar chokes, trying to defend your guard against guys who get a hold of your pants, etc...
Go against someone who really plays De La Riva, Spider, Lasso, Inverted De La Riva in the Gi, its so different
I started training in the gi and got about three months in before I switched to a 10th planet school. When I started 10P I thought no gi was so much harder and it took me a while to learn how to move without depending on the gi for control. Now I am training full time no gi but I will throw on the gi to compete since as a female I do not get as many matches. I figured it is just more competition time for me. Since I will put a gi on for maybe a week before competition, I am not as good at it but I still usually only lose by points. I cannot stand being controlled so much since my opponents can just hold on to my pant legs to prevent me from moving.
I do it for the experience. This past spring while I was still a white belt, I was competing in intermediate no gi so the tournament officials made me do blue belt in the gi. They do not care what belt you are, if you do expert no gi then expect to compete in purple belt for the gi. Some may not see it as fair but I only learn from my losses in the gi. No gi is what matters to me more anyway :-)
Yes, Jean Jaques gave Eddie his third stripe. Of course he can wear his 3rd degree black belt to Jean Jaques' to train. That's Eddies instructor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Dewitt Jr
This is the way to do it. It's cautious. I feel this is the best way for sure to be humble and show respect when on another instructor's stomping ground. +1 McCaghren, +1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
When I train at the mendes camp(wearing gi), both Rafa and Gui say I should wear the belt I've earned. They're as gi legit as you can get.
Yes I may not know all the chokes, grips, etc. with the gi, but my level of knowledge is such that I should be able to catch on quickly to the concepts thrown at me- I'm a brown belt.
Just my 2 cents. Everyone has some good arguments here, but ultimately, wear the belt you feel you can most humbly defend.
Spot on sir.
Just respect the school your in and follow their rules. I do think this will be less and less of an issue in the future as more schools are training both. (Robson, Marcelo etc..)
To me, the answer is: it’s not your call. You have to let your instructor decide and do what they say. Different instructors do things differently. If I was given the option though, I would personally choose to wear a white belt if it was class or my 10th planet rank if it was competition. I feel like those choices are the ones that show the most respect. This issue to me has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with respect.
And in answer to someone’s post, I think it could be interpreted as very disrespectful by many instructors if you walked in in different ranks on different days because that is contrary to how they rank and do things.
I hear they have this one all no-gi gracie barra somewhere? If that’s true I would differ to the instructor as to my rank same as above. Same if I visited a Luta-livra (spelling wrong?) school. Its no-gi grappling but I’m not ranked in that art. If my skill is worthy of rank, that will work itself out in time. I just have to be honest about my training background and be respectful of the school owner’s way of doing things.
In 2009 when I started rolling with Caio I was a brown belt and didn't train in a gi at all with him. Later on that year Eddie promoted me to back belt and I then went on to compete in the ibjjf no gi worlds at black and was recognized by the ibjjf as a black belt. By them recognizing me as a black belt I could compete in both gi and no gi If I wanted to. Later on that year Caio asked me to help him prepare for gi events, i told him i would help him train but i wouldn't put the gi on for anyone else since he has helped me i wanted to help him. I told him that I has received a blue belt in the gi and was comfortable wearing a blue belt. He said Denny you are a black belt from Eddie so you are a black belt period plus the ibjjf recognizes you as a black belt since they gave you your federation black belt id. I personally felt honored that he though I was good enough in the gi to help him prepare.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
When I went to Jean Jacques to train for a day the class was gi and I wanted to train with him. I told him that Eddie had promoted me to first degree and asked him if I could wear my black he was cool with it.
For the record I Have NEVER taught in the gi and WILL NOT. I am personally not a fan of the gi and don't like training in one. I will however help a friend if asked and will train in a gi if that's the only way I can train since everyone is rocking the gi.
HESPECT
Mad HespectQuote:
Originally Posted by DENNY PROKOPOS
yeah my instructor said to me he didn't include the no-gi aspects of our game into his gradings and that I was free to get graded in no-gi/10p under Eddie, and in the gi too under him.
My personal opinion is they are different sports. Sure a tonne of it crosses over, however the differences are actually quite vast.
I believe you would need to have trained in both styles to appreciate the differences though. Those fucking collar chokes come on fast as fuck haha. :)
It should be a case by case basis and depend on the instructor that one is training under. I don't think one should assume their rank transfers to another gym even if they are a Gi guy transferring to another Gi school. If you switch academies you should test with them and see where your rank is at according to their standards. If you are just dropping in go ahead and make the instructor aware and carry two belts just incase they prefer you wear a white one in the GI. I would not just assume its cool to wear your Nogi rank at a GI school. I would also not assume that an instructor would be cool with an experienced Nogi grappler putting a white belt on and crushing some newbs. Both of these actions will probably get you green lit.
Lastly: would a 10th Planet black belt be allowed to compete Nogi as a black in the ibjjf and a lesser rank with the Gi on?
Let people wear whatever belt/rashguard they want. A belt only covers 2 inches of your ass, its up to you to cover the rest.
John im coming to ChicagoQuote:
Originally Posted by John Mejia
10th Planet is still relatively new so there are still lots of these ranking questions to be sorted out.
If you are a drop in it doesn't matter to me what color of rash guard you wear, I could care less really. If you are a 10p soldier then it does matter to me.
If you want to "join" the 10p association I recognize all Bjj belts as a 10p belt except black belts. They are 10p brown belts, again, only if they are entering the system officially.
10p black belts must be well versed in all the 10p specific techniques including the rubber guard, the twister, lockdown half and all the deep hook transitions to spider web.
These are my rules, every instructor has got their own rules. If you are confused as to what belt to wear, ask the head instructor what you should wear, it's his decision, it's that simple.
For sure. I think the real question here, is whether you think a nogi black belt is relevant in the gi or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo
Are you saying black belt in nogi or black belt in 10th planet?
Can there be a nogi black belt that isn't a 10th planet black belt?
If you win ADCC would you be a nogi blackbelt?
If every gym had their own ranking system nobody could say they were anything anywhere.
A 10p black belt can be considered a nogi black belt but a nogi black belt is only a 10p black belt if he is part of the 10p association.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Gammel
If a nogi black belt is not well versed in the rubber guard, twister, lockdown half, and all the deep hook transitions to spider web then how can he be called a 10p black belt?
Brent is correct in that gi black belts and 10p black belts are similar in the basics but very different when you break down what techniques they actually know.
I heard. Ill be waiting for your arrival. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DENNY PROKOPOS
Yeeeeeeee :)
End of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by DENNY PROKOPOS
No matter what school Denny goes to to roll at, if it is BJJ, he is a black belt and should wear the black belt rank.
We know with Denny he is not going to roll in the Gi, BUT in an alternate universe where he DID roll in the Gi, he should still wear his black belt imo, even if he gets trounced in the Gi. To wear anything less is misrepresenting your skill level. Denny has blackbelt Jiu Jitsu skills, even if he is unfamiliar with the pajama gripping, etc. He is still a destroyer.
I agree the differences between no gi and gi are becoming more apparent and the differences in some of the techniques are obvious. Ranks for each arts gi and no gi.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
Im pretty sure that David Avellan and Freestyle Fighting Academy in Miami train mostly nogi and give out belts for nogi grapplers. So yes you can have a nogi black belt that isnt a 10th planet black belt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Gammel
Chris Brennan does it too, and the belts are IBJJF certified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Perez
I agree 100% with Brent.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
Its up to the Gi instructor you train under period point blank they deserve the respect to make that determination for you since its their academy I know Cobrinha, the Mendez Brothers, and Andre Galvao, at Atos all recognize 10th Planet belts in the Gi since I have team members from 10thPlanet Vista, and 10thPlanet Costa Mesa that train at their academys.
It is very important to me to be competitive in the division I enter. Its the only way I can resent the guys who show up just for gi after my 16 man nogi bracket and look myself in the eye. Then slap their hand and try to beat them at their game. I will grapple whenever possible and learn from whoever possible within the set infrastructure. This philosophy will often require a gi. I just go with it. Eddie and 10p have improved my gi 100% by improving my overall knowledge of grappling. Solid principles transcend into both, if you do both. If not, I have seen a huge skill gap in players.
It amazes me too that No-gi and Gi Jiu Jitsu are very different from each other even though they share a similar foundation. I think the differences may not be that noticeable at white and blue belt, but when comparing No-Gi and Gi at Purple and above the differences become much more apparent.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
When comparing No-gi and Gi at the white and blue level. I think both the no-gi and gi players at that level are both just just trying to get the main foundation of grappling, so man concepts in no-gi and gi are very similar.
But as you start to compare no-gi and gi at purple and above levels, the details are what start to differentiate no-gi and gi jiu jitsu. The detail of using grips to pass, submit, and defend in Gi brings a whole other element to the game that can not be utilized in no-gi. Also, I personal feel I can play open guard a lot better in the Gi.
High level No-Gi definitely utilizes the clinch and over/underhooks more. I also feel more comfortable playing a leg lock game in no-gi.
Personally, I love both and train both. As far as ranking, When I wear a Gi, I wear the purple ranking that was awarded to me from training traditional brazilian jiu jitsu in the Gi. The 10th Planet system is truly unique and I represent the 10th planet rank that my 10th planet Coach said is appropriate to wear.
Either way keep it rollin'