Gonna quote what I wrote the in first post:
"Much of his gi game is nogi(minus the grips)."
I didn't mean to mislead you.
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How could it be when he prefers one guard in the gi and another no gi?
Powerful slick rick. The game is different. There hasn't been enough time for the nogi specific guys to get to the top. It just takes time. The guys at the top that train GI and nogi will talk about how different it is. If training the GI made you better at nogi, and nogi training didn't mean anything, then why in the world do all these guys spend so much time training nogi? Don't make assumptions. Ask people that know. I really don't see how people can argue with rick about rafas game. When you don't train with Rafa, and rick not only trains with him, but is a student of his. Jeez.
Besides Rafa himself on video saying he plays a different game between Gi and No Gi I guess Rick is right...
Well the biggest difference is easily heel hooks. They aren't legal even in no-gi at any belt level in IBJJF. They are however legal in almost every other grappling organization. ADCC, Grappler's Quest, NAGA, Gracie Nationals, etc. Almost every other technique is legal in both the gi and no-gi. With electric chairs and banana splits, there's no express rule against those in the IBJJF (which has the same rules for gi and no-gi), but you may have confused ref that doesn't understand what they are and they may DQ you. Their refs in general are improving every year. They now allow calf slicers and bicep slicers. Even ADCC has a few restricted techniques. In ADCC you cannot do a full nelson of all things, or a Bas Rutten style crucifix.
We really need to stop feeding the trolls.
I'm gonna add this to my topic of futile debates. Alongside politics and religion..
Is this debate political? Kevin certainly made a mass generalization with his '10p4l kids' comment. 'Kids' is gonna come off as derogatory regardless when you are talking to grown men/women paying bills. But, I understand and completely empathize with the statement. I have seen many hinder their progression by being stubborn. Refusing to dawn a gi, when the best instruction/competition in the area is gi. They destroy beginner and intermediate nogi comps, then don't even register how far they are from the elite level. Many of us have to clean up the damage they have done to 10p's reputation and credibility. Then there's the people that actually get it. They love it and genuinely believe in it.
Jj is a culture/lifestyle. It quickly becomes more than a hobby and starts to resonate, even dictate (for the competitors), every other part of your life. Much like musicians, b-boys, skaters, painters or any other serious artist, you begin to eat, breathe, and sleep your craft. You align yourself with others who do the same and a subculture develops. This is where the magic happens. Passion knows no bounds. Can we predict the future of no i from the current grappling climate? Fuck no. Can we learn from those who are currently excelling? Of course.
The crazy part to me is, when it comes to the highest level, they're all pretty much right. Imho. The best will always tell you that super solid fundamentals ie-base, control, timing- will be you're greatest assets as a grappler. This is undeniably true, gi or nogi. Eddie just put one of those under the microscope and found fundamental differences in one of those aspects. Control. It is why wrestlers can quickly adapt to nogi and why we need to adapt/assimilate to wrestlers.
In short, yes, there will always be a question on the best way to train, other than HARD. Other than that most of us can just sit back(cue Micheal Jackson popcorn gif), train, learn, and enjoy the ride. The art of killing your fellow man will always be enticing. I think it has to do with sex somehow. But what doesn't..?
LOL'd at Jon Joc
Been saying this for a while. Also, due to the popularity of the gi, there are more options to train full time for gi players than no gi players. That will also produce a disproportionate amount of superior grapplers regardless of which uniform they dawn.
That said, Dean Lister is in the elite class and he trains like maybe 2% gi throughout the year and kills in ADCC.
Good post man
Thanks, Dave.
Has anyone thought of it from this angle: what about training normal athletes and what is best for them as opposed to guys competing in the highest level? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, but I bring it up because we always refer to guys who are training at the highest level as an example of what we should or shouldn't do as grapplers, but some times their students have a success rate in local tournaments that is no better or worse than some schools that have lesser known instructors. A little off topic of gi vs no gi, but food for thought.
dude obviously the egg came first. if we could track it down the the exact birth of the first animal identified as a chicken then logically the parent of the chicken would not be a chicken but the earlier evolutionary form of it. if the chicken came first then it would mean that the chicken was not hatched from an egg which would make it a different animal to a chicken which means it is impossible for the chicken to come first and logically or at least hypothetically sound for the egg to come first. if you believe in evolution of course.
Bobby...kids is a team of endermant. When I greet my friends I say " What up kid?" So don't read into it. As for my argument time can and may prove me wrong as to effectiveness but IMO for me alone I don't see it in my game being significant to my success weather or not I train in a gi.
The balance of Gi to No-gi training may be true in the microcosm you live in, however around here everyone trains in the gi with very little to no No-gi training, and this isn't only true in my area. I have people from out of town stop in to train everyweek. The results and excuses are the same white belt to black belt when they get tapped out "I'm not used to training and rolling without the gi, it's so different". I see whites tapping out purples and blues tapping out blacks on a regular and this
is at the grass roots level, it will filter through to the top of the pyramid with time.
My personal opinion is.... Jiu-Jitsu makes your Jiu-Jitsu better. who cares if you're wearing pajamas or a loincloth. you can hate on either "omg gi is just 2 dudes stuck in 50/50 BOOOORRRIIIINNGGG" or "omg nogi is gay, everyone sweats and slips out of everything, no subs BOOOORRRIIIINNGGG." but there are amazing matches in both. basically, I'm saying if you have good jiu-jitsu it will translate well no matter what cloths you're wearing.
The Arguement we should be having is.......... Man Vs. Monkey. do you guys think marcelo can beat a monkey his size, and straight up choke it out? Obviously you have to muzzel the monkey so it doesnt bite his fingers face and dick off. But to be fair, you have to muzzel marcelo too (cause people will bitch that the monkey didnt have max cardio because of the muzzel.)
NOW THAT IS TOPIC OF DISCUSSION!
George is a genius.
I totally feel lost in No Gi. I am still breaking habits that I have in Gi (grips). I reach for collars and grab belts, its terrible haha. But I am incorporating more No Gi into my life and am slowly adjusting.
I am too lazy to quote.
Sean, 10PJJ isn't the oldest nogi jiujitsu. If you don't count Luta Livre, you have Brennan's system and Walt Bayless' Combat Jiujitsu. Bayless' predates UFC 1.
kevin, yeah when you first move over you struggle with spider guard.. However all guard styles you learn nogi apply in the gi and on the flip of the coin, someone who is dependent upon spider is going to have far less of a skillset in nogi. Do you remember what happened to Lovato/Rodolfo at AD Pro Worlds? In the gi, it was a Rodolfo show. However, once it went nogi Rodolfo was completely out of his element and outclassed.