Who's all repping 10P at NoGi Worlds this weekend?

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Originally Posted by Ben Eddy

It does really hurt us, in a sense, that we have such a negative stance against ibjjf and points tournaments. Pretty hard to make any argument for 10pjj when our guys only compete at small tournaments like gracie worlds (pretty much an all 10P event still at this point) and 10P put on events like EBI. The only people trying 10p techniques at the black belt levels in these point tournaments are people not from our school. These point tournaments are the only BJJ stage at the moment to put technique on display. The only other option is Metamoris. It would be great to have one of our top guys on a Metamoris card, but the hard thing there is it's kind of hard to build a resume/following for you to get invited if you're only competing at random unknown comps. You might beat some big names in those lesser known comps (geo vs glover), but less people will know about it.

It's not like the 10P system's techniques translate poorly in a point format. We go for subs often (a good strat for advantages) and Eddie's style in particular is very well suited for points. It's very systematic from quater guard to better position.

It's not a conspiracy that 10p moves are questioned. The only people to bring them to the bigger stages so far are Eddie and every so often from people outside the system. And that's too bad, because we have guys at that upper level. ADCC, IBJJF, any stage that has the eyes of the bjj scene, we need to be at. It's sad that when I go scrolling through footage of the top JJ comp of the year the only person I see hitting electric chairs is a guy outside of our school. We should change that..

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Well said Ben

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Originally Posted by Joseph Hachey

So, shall we call that hesitant agreement? lol

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I guess in a way lol.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren

Rafael Lovato Jr competed at Five instead of IBJJF. Just saw his medal pics. Big statement right there, I think.

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I know hes sponsored by them so Im not sure if thats the reason or its a silent protest on ibjjf. Only speculation.

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Originally Posted by Joseph Hachey

These are the usual IBJJF gripes that echo throughout this forum that, for the most part, I agree with. But refusing to compete on our sports highest stage because you don't like the ruleset is a tragedy. The IOC has all kids of criticism, but I don't see the high jumpers refusing to compete because they measure the jumps in meters instead of just seeing who jumps higher! That's a silly example. My point is that 10th Planet is full of beasts who specialize in NOGI jiu jitsu. It seems extremely silly not to send our best guys forward to showcase the system.

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To compete in these tournaments is to support these tournaments. If guys don't like the way the rule set is but still pay however much to do it, then there's no chance of change. Back of the bus Rosa Parks.

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Originally Posted by Mike Dewitt Jr

I think using the example of meters is a poor example....we are talking dq for reaping in black belt competitions. Guys getting an advantage and not attacking or improving after that.

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And guys purposely moving the foot over to get a reaping DQ. Infuriating. I hope they have fixed that one at least.

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Originally Posted by Aiseop

Rules can be changed and should. AJ Agazarm won gold by getting 2 points on a takedown and then purposefully stalling, receiving 2 penalties to burn time before he engaged in the match again. THAT is egregious. The closeouts need to stop. It happens waaay too often.

One suggestion made by the commentators was to have teams on "one side of the bracket" so that they face each other earlier and must chose THEN, instead of the final, where another team would have made the same choice in a quaterfinal match. That way, in the final, when we are paying attention, you are guaranteed two people from different teams.

Final thought: time to go through the interwebs and look up Yuri Simoes fight vids. Beast.

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I like that idea. I still don't understand close outs. You battle in the gym why not for the gold?



And thank you to whoever gave the negative rep point..Not sure what the hell rep points are even for but ok. gtfo

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Originally Posted by Brent Smith

I guess in a way lol.



I know hes sponsored by them so Im not sure if thats the reason or its a silent protest on ibjjf. Only speculation.



To compete in these tournaments is to support these tournaments. If guys don't like the way the rule set is but still pay however much to do it, then there's no chance of change. Back of the bus Rosa Parks.



And guys purposely moving the foot over to get a reaping DQ. Infuriating. I hope they have fixed that one at least.



I like that idea. I still don't understand close outs. You battle in the gym why not for the gold?



And thank you to whoever gave the negative rep point..Not sure what the hell rep points are even for but ok. gtfo

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was that a LI ref. with the rosa parks thing, if so well played :)

I have mixed feelings on this in I do agree that if you do not like the rules as they are dumb with reaping and the stalling to win on points then why pay our hard earned money on this but I agree with Ben Eddy in if 10P is going to be taken seriously it has to win on this level as it is the UFC of the BJJ competition scene. Until something bigger comes along or the mainstream guys stop doing it then it is the "world champion" of BJJ.
I would love to see the top guys compete on this stage and maybe the forum community could sponsor their trip to make it financially effective for them.....just my 2 cents....

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Originally Posted by imported_scott

I have mixed feelings on this in I do agree that if you do not like the rules as they are dumb with reaping and the stalling to win on points then why pay our hard earned money on this but I agree with Ben Eddy in if 10P is going to be taken seriously it has to win on this level as it is the UFC of the BJJ competition scene. Until something bigger comes along or the mainstream guys stop doing it then it is the "world champion" of BJJ.
I would love to see the top guys compete on this stage and maybe the forum community could sponsor their trip to make it financially effective for them.....just my 2 cents....

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ADCC is definitely the world championship and UFC of no-gi. The IBJJF pales in comparison.

10th Planet seems to have its goals rightly set on ADCC...the real deal.

Here are my thoughts on the subject. To my knowledge, no one from 10th planet has ever won the IBJJF NoGi Worlds, or even medaled at the Black Belt division. Who wouldn't want an IBJJF NoGI Worlds title added to their resume? Also, there was an article earlier this year talking about the future being invite only at the Black Belt level. Wouldn't that be something. You just can't ignore one of the most prestiges jiu jitsu tournaments in the world because it doesn't fit your taste. Lets be real. I would want to win them all and so would most of you.

Unless you count Vinny Magalhaes, but does he really count seeing how he was promoted to Black belt from Royler Gracie?

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Originally Posted by Brent Alvarez

Here are my thoughts on the subject. To my knowledge, no one from 10th planet has ever won the IBJJF NoGi Worlds, or even medaled at the Black Belt division. Who wouldn't want an IBJJF NoGI Worlds title added to their resume? Also, there was an article earlier this year talking about the future being invite only at the Black Belt level. Wouldn't that be something. You just can't ignore one of the most prestiges jiu jitsu tournaments in the world because it doesn't fit your taste. Lets be real. I would want to win them all and so would most of you.

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You're right. Starting in 2015, in order to compete at Worlds as a black belt, you must have either won or made the podium (I can't remember which one) at an ibjjf event the previous year. It is their way of getting high level competitors out to local events. Not many black belts do the Chicago ibjjf open but this year Caio Terra came out to qualify for next May's Worlds.

They still DQ black belts for reaping? lol

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Originally Posted by Amber Kamischke

You're right. Starting in 2015, in order to compete at Worlds as a black belt, you must have either won or made the podium (I can't remember which one) at an ibjjf event the previous year. It is their way of getting high level competitors out to local events. Not many black belts do the Chicago ibjjf open but this year Caio Terra came out to qualify for next May's Worlds.

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In order to compete at the IBJJF worlds 2015, competitors have to meet at least one of the following criteria;
Accrued 50 points or more in IBJJF comps at BB
Previously won the worlds as a BB
Won the 2014 worlds at brown

As for the "which is the most prestigious tournament"?
Gi = IBJJF worlds (all levels)
NOGI = ADCC (elite/BB only)

As ADCC is elite level, I would guess that below that (say blue or purple), then it depends on locale for nogi.

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Originally Posted by Brent Alvarez

Here are my thoughts on the subject. To my knowledge, no one from 10th planet has ever won the IBJJF NoGi Worlds, or even medaled at the Black Belt division. Who wouldn't want an IBJJF NoGI Worlds title added to their resume? Also, there was an article earlier this year talking about the future being invite only at the Black Belt level. Wouldn't that be something. You just can't ignore one of the most prestiges jiu jitsu tournaments in the world because it doesn't fit your taste. Lets be real. I would want to win them all and so would most of you.

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IMHO, 10th Planet did great at IBJJF No-Gi Mundials from the start.

2007 was the very first one: Denny took Gold at Brown Belt.
2009 was the third one: Denny took Bronze at Black Belt.

His 2009 division included Samir Chantre and Baret Yoshida. Other Bronze medalist that year were: Joao Assis, Murilo Santana, Daniel Moraes, James Brasco, Marcelo Azevedo, and Bruno Bastos.

Prior to the most recent years, 10th Planet has had a bunch of other medalists in other adult belt divisions. It goes something like this:

Gold:
Blue 2010 Sachnoff
Purple 2007 Van Valen
Brown 2007 Prokopos

Silver
Blue 2011 Hillebrand
Purple 2009 Allam

Bronze:
Brown 2012 Brent Alvarez (good work btw!)
Purple 2012 Anthony Lopez
Blue 2011 Billy Joseph Denny
Blue 2011 Hillebrand (absolute)
Purple 2011 Sachnoff
Purple 2009 Miller
Brown 2007 Beauchamp
Black 2009 Prokopos


That's actually a great record given the smaller numbers of 10th Planet guys back in those days. It's just that the rules suck (no reaping? wtf?), and it has a reputation for highly questionable calls against Americans. Who would want to support that organization?

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Originally Posted by Jack Hanley

IMHO, 10th Planet did great at IBJJF No-Gi Mundials from the start.

2007 was the very first one: Denny took Gold at Brown Belt.
2009 was the third one: Denny took Bronze at Black Belt.

His 2008 division included Samir Chantre and Baret Yoshida. Other Bronze medalist that year were: Joao Assis, Murilo Santana, Daniel Moraes, James Brasco, Marcelo Azevedo, and Bruno Bastos.

Prior to the most recent years, 10th Planet has had a bunch of other medalists in other adult belt divisions. It goes something like this:

Gold:
Blue 2010 Sachnoff
Purple 2007 Van Valen
Brown 2007 Prokopos

Silver
Blue 2011 Hillebrand
Purple 2009 Allam

Bronze:
Brown 2012 Brent Alvarez (good work btw!)
Purple 2012 Anthony Lopez
Blue 2011 Billy Joseph Denny
Blue 2011 Hillebrand (absolute)
Purple 2011 Sachnoff
Purple 2009 Miller
Brown 2007 Beauchamp
Black 2009 Prokopos


That's actually a great record given the smaller numbers of 10th Planet guys back in those days. It's just that the rules suck (no reaping? wtf?), and it has a reputation for highly questionable calls against Americans. Who would want to support that organization?

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Must be something in that water up in the bay area!

+1

Yes the rules and favoritism in IBJJF sucks, but it would be pretty sweet to have that World title at Black. I really hope a 10th planet rep snags it one day. I do agree that ADCC is the ultimate goal in NoGi grappling. However, I believe events such as EBI will be just as prestiges. Thanks for the input Jack :)

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Originally Posted by Jack Hanley

ADCC is definitely the world championship and UFC of no-gi. The IBJJF pales in comparison.

10th Planet seems to have its goals rightly set on ADCC...the real deal.

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Do we? Haven't heard of many going for it. Big Red (adam sachnoff) had went to a qualifier and got himself a spot to the last ADCC, but got injured right before the comp. Other than that haven't heard much of people even going to the qualifiers. To be fair though we are just now really breaking through on some top level guys who compete within the system past denny. So we should have a decent amount of guys taking a shot at these upcoming ADCC qualifiers. Just gotta make sure we stay up on when those qualifiers are and get out there and go for them.

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Originally Posted by Ben Eddy

Do we? Haven't heard of many going for it. Big Red (adam sachnoff) had went to a qualifier and got himself a spot to the last ADCC, but got injured right before the comp. Other than that haven't heard much of people even going to the qualifiers. To be fair though we are just now really breaking through on some top level guys who compete within the system past denny. So we should have a decent amount of guys taking a shot at these upcoming ADCC qualifiers. Just gotta make sure we stay up on when those qualifiers are and get out there and go for them.

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Sachnoff submitted 100% of his opponents at the qualifier. That was a HUGE statement. The only other guy to do it at that qualifier was Keenan!

Amir took Sachnoff's spot earned from the qualifier and then another guy repping 10th Planet made it from Australia (Robert Sabaruddin iirc). That was two 10th Planet guys in the last ADCC (not counting Vinny). I was super impressed with that progress!

Amir had the bad luck of drawing super dark horse sleeper Jared Dopp who took him out along with Vinny and eventually lost only to the silver medal guy and Cyborg.

Wow, great info sharing, Jack! Are you like the official historian of 10th Planet? lol :)

No. Hahaha. Back in the day, I needed all the stats for firepower to repel the hoards of no-gi haters.

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Originally Posted by Jack Hanley

IMHO, 10th Planet did great at IBJJF No-Gi Mundials from the start.

2007 was the very first one: Denny took Gold at Brown Belt.
2009 was the third one: Denny took Bronze at Black Belt.

His 2009 division included Samir Chantre and Baret Yoshida. Other Bronze medalist that year were: Joao Assis, Murilo Santana, Daniel Moraes, James Brasco, Marcelo Azevedo, and Bruno Bastos.

Prior to the most recent years, 10th Planet has had a bunch of other medalists in other adult belt divisions. It goes something like this:

Gold:
Blue 2010 Sachnoff
Purple 2007 Van Valen
Brown 2007 Prokopos

Silver
Blue 2011 Hillebrand
Purple 2009 Allam

Bronze:
Brown 2012 Brent Alvarez (good work btw!)
Purple 2012 Anthony Lopez
Blue 2011 Billy Joseph Denny
Blue 2011 Hillebrand (absolute)
Purple 2011 Sachnoff
Purple 2009 Miller
Brown 2007 Beauchamp
Black 2009 Prokopos


That's actually a great record given the smaller numbers of 10th Planet guys back in those days. It's just that the rules suck (no reaping? wtf?), and it has a reputation for highly questionable calls against Americans. Who would want to support that organization?

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Awesome post Jack. Seriously.

Personally, I believe that Geo would've taken gold or at least medaled last year if the IBJJF would've let him compete. They won't let him compete until he completes a certain time frame. They say he got promoted too quickly. I think the same happened to Boogeyman.

While resisting the IBJJF machine is making a strong statement, it still hinders the 10th P name in a lot of people's minds. Pans and worlds happen yearly. ADCC happens every 3 years. So it's hard to build a name off of ADCC.

Even now, while 10th planet has more black belts than before, we still don't have as many competition focused black belts as other orgs. Most of our black belts have to focus on other things, like running schools. Teaching classes. Coaching other guys. Working full time jobs. Yeah, there are elite IBJJF champs who do all of that. But they also had the benefit of being competition black belts for years before opening their first schools. Prior to that, they were full time competitors with no responsibilities. I'm sure that plays a factor into their success.

Even still, 10th Planet is currently having one of its best years ever as far as exposure, success, and respect. The guys who thought Eddie was a fluke were proven wrong. The guys who claimed it wasn't good for MMA have been proven wrong. The guys who say 10th doesn't do well in comps are still yapping, sure. But the yapping is getting quieter because 10WO keeps showing up to comps and tapping guys out.

Little by little, 10wo keeps getting bigger, better, stronger, faster, smarter. More black belts are being added with lots of young competition addicts working their way towards black. It's only a matter of time before one of our blacks snatches an IBJJF gold. And when that happens, mf'ers will still hate and say, "well, that's just one medal." And then we'll rack up more and more. People need to remember that 10th Planet is a super young org compared to other orgs. And most of the dominant comp teams are just offshoots of long existing comp groups before them. So in reality, their starting point is still like a 90 year head start compared to 10th Planet's birth.

10th is going to get respect regardless of getting gold at IBJJF. But at the same time, I still believe that one of our blacks will still show up and take home a gold, just to prove a point. And why not? Until another org can lure away the big names, IBJJF is still going to carry a very high level of prestige. So why not?

Pardon the rant.

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Originally Posted by Brent Alvarez

Yes the rules and favoritism in IBJJF sucks, but it would be pretty sweet to have that World title at Black. I really hope a 10th planet rep snags it one day. I do agree that ADCC is the ultimate goal in NoGi grappling. However, I believe events such as EBI will be just as prestiges. Thanks for the input Jack :)

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I agree Brent. 10th doesn't NEED the respect of the BJJ community. Look at how big it's grown despite its detractors. But it still would be dope to see a 10th Planet player take home an IBJJF black belt gold.

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Originally Posted by Ben Eddy

Do we? Haven't heard of many going for it. Big Red (adam sachnoff) had went to a qualifier and got himself a spot to the last ADCC, but got injured right before the comp. Other than that haven't heard much of people even going to the qualifiers. To be fair though we are just now really breaking through on some top level guys who compete within the system past denny. So we should have a decent amount of guys taking a shot at these upcoming ADCC qualifiers. Just gotta make sure we stay up on when those qualifiers are and get out there and go for them.

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Like I mentioned, with ADCC only happening every 3 years, it's hard to build a rep off of that alone. In fact, the way that most guys get their invites isn't from qualifiers. It's from solidifying their competition records in IBJJF comps. ADCC may be the biggest event, but IBJJF is the second biggest. And with Pans and Worlds happening yearly, it's easier to build a rep there than ADCC, unfortunately. Again, until another org can lure away big names, IBJJF is going to retain it's prestige. It's a shame people don't boycott them.

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

Awesome post Jack. Seriously.

Personally, I believe that Geo would've taken gold or at least medaled last year if the IBJJF would've let him compete. They won't let him compete until he completes a certain time frame. They say he got promoted too quickly. I think the same happened to Boogeyman.

While resisting the IBJJF machine is making a strong statement, it still hinders the 10th P name in a lot of people's minds. Pans and worlds happen yearly. ADCC happens every 3 years. So it's hard to build a name off of ADCC.

Even now, while 10th planet has more black belts than before, we still don't have as many competition focused black belts as other orgs. Most of our black belts have to focus on other things, like running schools. Teaching classes. Coaching other guys. Working full time jobs. Yeah, there are elite IBJJF champs who do all of that. But they also had the benefit of being competition black belts for years before opening their first schools. Prior to that, they were full time competitors with no responsibilities. I'm sure that plays a factor into their success.

Even still, 10th Planet is currently having one of its best years ever as far as exposure, success, and respect. The guys who thought Eddie was a fluke were proven wrong. The guys who claimed it wasn't good for MMA have been proven wrong. The guys who say 10th doesn't do well in comps are still yapping, sure. But the yapping is getting quieter because 10WO keeps showing up to comps and tapping guys out.

Little by little, 10wo keeps getting bigger, better, stronger, faster, smarter. More black belts are being added with lots of young competition addicts working their way towards black. It's only a matter of time before one of our blacks snatches an IBJJF gold. And when that happens, mf'ers will still hate and say, "well, that's just one medal." And then we'll rack up more and more. People need to remember that 10th Planet is a super young org compared to other orgs. And most of the dominant comp teams are just offshoots of long existing comp groups before them. So in reality, their starting point is still like a 90 year head start compared to 10th Planet's birth.

10th is going to get respect regardless of getting gold at IBJJF. But at the same time, I still believe that one of our blacks will still show up and take home a gold, just to prove a point. And why not? Until another org can lure away the big names, IBJJF is still going to carry a very high level of prestige. So why not?

Pardon the rant.

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These are all fair points.

I totally agree about the momentum behind 10th Planet. When an organization is deeply infused with an open minded competition mentality that embraces "everything that works in tournaments", the inevitable result is what we are seeing right now: a tidal wave of competitors that just gets stronger, faster, and bigger the further you go down the timeline. 10th Planet is, and will be, successful no matter what...as long as it sticks to this same principle.

But, I ask myself what would be cooler 5 or 10 years from now: something closer to Scenario A or something closer to Scenario B.

Scenario A
10th Planet caves to pressure from the BJJ community and starts sending it's competitors to No-Gi Mundials en masse. To accommodate the ridiculous rule set there, 10th Planet starts drilling the same "pull guard, sweep, and stall" drills that every other team does to optimize performance under those rules. Moves that might get competitors DQ'd, like twisters and basically every good leg attack, are de-emphasized. Takedowns are ignored. Going for the sub is de-emphasized in favor of a points centered strategy. 10th Planet starts taking a lot of medals at No-gi Mundials, but it has had to change a lot of it's character to do so. Also, by succumbing to the IBJJF mentality, 10th Planet has helped no-gi submission grappling as a whole move even further away from the combat effectiveness that once gave it such a prestigious position among other martial arts.

Scenario B
10th Planet refuses to cave to the IBJJF pressure. It occasionally sends super commandos like Geo and Orchard over there to wreck house, but on the whole maintains it's focus on tournaments with more open rule sets. Matches like Geo/Glover keep happening in showcases like EBI. People notice. Guys like Orchard keep cleaning house in tournaments in the tradition of the GQ UFC Fan Expo Pro Tourney (RIP GQ), and only lose to other super elite grapplers like Tonon. People notice. 10th Planet gets more and more guys through the ADCC trials and starts taking the ADCC podium spots. The IBJJF starts losing prestige because those among their black belt champions who focus only on their rule set keep getting their asses kicked in more open rule sets (think Rodolfo's failure in ADCC despite IBJJF dominance). Also, the rest of the non-Brazilian no-gi grappling world sees what 10th is doing and realizes they don't have to capitulate to the ridiculous IBJJF rules and biased reffing. More and more grapplers join 10th in boycotting them. Meanwhile, 10th Planet guys are doing better and better in these open rule sets and start taking out the IBJJF focused black belt Champions. The IBJJF starts losing money due to smaller registration numbers and is forced to open their rule set and eliminate the biased reffing or face of future of increasing irrelevance. Consequently, no-gi grappling as a whole effectively moves closer to it's combat effective roots and further away from martial LARPing.


It won't necessarily be strictly one scenario or the other. But, I know which future looks brighter to me.

I like option B better. :) Honestly, I just couldn't imagine 10th Planet ever going with scenario A.

Again, great post.

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Originally Posted by Jack Hanley

These are all fair points.

I totally agree about the momentum behind 10th Planet. When an organization is deeply infused with an open minded competition mentality that embraces "everything that works in tournaments", the inevitable result is what we are seeing right now: a tidal wave of competitors that just gets stronger, faster, and bigger the further you go down the timeline. 10th Planet is, and will be, successful no matter what...as long as it sticks to this same principle.

But, I ask myself what would be cooler 5 or 10 years from now: something closer to Scenario A or something closer to Scenario B.

Scenario A
10th Planet caves to pressure from the BJJ community and starts sending it's competitors to No-Gi Mundials en masse. To accommodate the ridiculous rule set there, 10th Planet starts drilling the same "pull guard, sweep, and stall" drills that every other team does to optimize performance under those rules. Moves that might get competitors DQ'd, like twisters and basically every good leg attack, are de-emphasized. Takedowns are ignored. Going for the sub is de-emphasized in favor of a points centered strategy. 10th Planet starts taking a lot of medals at No-gi Mundials, but it has had to change a lot of it's character to do so. Also, by succumbing to the IBJJF mentality, 10th Planet has helped no-gi submission grappling as a whole move even further away from the combat effectiveness that once gave it such a prestigious position among other martial arts.

Scenario B
10th Planet refuses to cave to the IBJJF pressure. It occasionally sends super commandos like Geo and Orchard over there to wreck house, but on the whole maintains it's focus on tournaments with more open rule sets. Matches like Geo/Glover keep happening in showcases like EBI. People notice. Guys like Orchard keep cleaning house in tournaments in the tradition of the GQ UFC Fan Expo Pro Tourney (RIP GQ), and only lose to other super elite grapplers like Tonon. People notice. 10th Planet gets more and more guys through the ADCC trials and starts taking the ADCC podium spots. The IBJJF starts losing prestige because those among their black belt champions who focus only on their rule set keep getting their asses kicked in more open rule sets (think Rodolfo's failure in ADCC despite IBJJF dominance). Also, the rest of the non-Brazilian no-gi grappling world sees what 10th is doing and realizes they don't have to capitulate to the ridiculous IBJJF rules and biased reffing. More and more grapplers join 10th in boycotting them. Meanwhile, 10th Planet guys are doing better and better in these open rule sets and start taking out the IBJJF focused black belt Champions. The IBJJF starts losing money due to smaller registration numbers and is forced to open their rule set and eliminate the biased reffing or face of future of increasing irrelevance. Consequently, no-gi grappling as a whole effectively moves closer to it's combat effective roots and further away from martial LARPing.


It won't necessarily be strictly one scenario or the other. But, I know which future looks brighter to me.

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Beautifully put. You know its a problem when this type of stuff exists that talks about strategy and grey areas of rules https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok2D...8dGnLahaslS-6w