How many matches went to overtime in EBI 2 ?
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How many matches went to overtime in EBI 2 ?
Damn this is very disappointing. So this is the last potentially big refuge besides Metamoris where people can go to see legit sub only matches on a big platform (literally) and now we find out that it's not much different than closing out with a teammate? Granted, Orchard wasn't aware, but it almost feels like a "work" or "worked match" instead of a real one.
Denny is basically Eddie's top student right? I wonder how Eddie feels about this, assuming this thread doesn't get deleted.
This is actually straight up bizarre.
He is 100% RIGHTQuote:
Originally Posted by nathan orchard
In any sport you will have people who look at the rules and try to win based on them. Seems Denny looked at the rules and decided to guarantee a win he wanted to play it safe and head to overtime. It is up to the organisers to create the conditions where certain things cannot happen. All Denny has done is shown that a return to the drawing board is needed if Eddie is looking to ensure that someone actively hunts for a sub (personally, I don't think it is possible unless you do Metamoris style matches where you draw if you don't get a tap).Quote:
I tried to tap Orchard in OT, just not in regulation.
That said, it is a shame that the bubble has burst, because I'd been raving to friends about this JJ competition that was more enjoyable than UFC and where subs are left-right and centre.
The doors this opens up are dangerous: keep away from the deck and get a draw. Practice your deadzones until you are untappable and have some mad escapes then work on holding like a motha fakarrr. Part 1 of that equation is cool, Part 2 could kill EBI.
The best way IMO to guarantee active sub hunting for everyone is toQuote:
Originally Posted by Apperz
1. Give everyone a small amount of money for competing
2. Give a larger bonus to anyone that gets a sub
3. Give a smaller bonus to the person that GETS SUBBED
This way, the draw or no sub outcome is the worst outcome, because both competitors make the least money. By giving more money to the competitor that gets the sub, it encourages the finish, but then you get into situations where the defender still might be stuck in a bad spot and just hang on for dear life and not move or attempt to escape, so that they don't get finished. THAT IS WHY you give bonus money to the guy that gets subbed also, because if he's in spiderweb, or locked in a front headlock, he won't be as likely to hang on for dear life, because if he tries to explode out and escape that armbar or guillotine to force the action, and gets tapped anyways, then he's also going to get some bonus money for making it exciting.
Financial incentives are the best incentives for anything in life. We all pretty much know this. I think this is the ideal structure for trying to get the most action out of everyone involved. Metamoris should do it as well.
The best thing for EBI in my opinion is one weight class per event, sub only with no time limit. That way there is no gaming the rules.
Sounds great in theory, but you will, one day, get someone who has incredible cardio and thinks 'if I can make this match last 30 minutes then the other guy will be tired and I will tap him'. It's one of those unwinnable battles that Eddie has to fight I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Mallory
To be fair, the EBI - until this - was shouted about and remarked upon, so I don't see Denny's tactic being all that common or putting too many people off - was still a great match.
The other option could be to keep the rules as they are but allow only one competitor per team - so no 10p vs 10p...
Going by what he said in his original post, it doesn't seem like he was doing it to play it safe, but because he thought for Orchard it wouldn't be as bad to lose in overtime. Although it isn't very nice to do that and then tell everybody you sandbagged to avoid publicly executing a guy you like so much. That kind of negates any nice (yet unintentionally disrespectful and condescending) intentions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Apperz
If it was just what he considered to be the strategy that gave him the best chance to win I'd agree with you mostly, but still think it a bit odd that it was one of Eddie's own guys who subverted the spirit of the whole event.
I can already hear the "I told you so" from Rose Gracie.
There's nothing wrong with a 30 minute match as long as there is action. I remember the brown belt kumite that Lloyd Irvin put together with Keenan. Those were some great matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Apperz
I think Eddie's point with EBI was for it to be exciting in order to get it on TV. I think that if Eddie made EBI sub only, no time limit with only one weight class and sold it pay per view it would continue to be a success.
I like the idea of only one team member per weight class.
They were great because Lloyd had an editing team cut everything so that you only saw the exciting parts. There were hour long matches where they showed 30 seconds of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Mallory
If you make it truly no time limit, you're going to get Ken Shamrock/Royce Gracie situations where the thing just won't end. EBI 2 went from 8 PM until what, 2 AM? No time limit matches is going to make that worse, not better I think.
You're right in that sub only no time limit is the only true sub only.
I saw the hour long match that Nija Easton had uncut. Every minute was worth watching. There were no warnings for stalling in those matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Nall
For EBI Eddie could have the ref issue warnings for stalling when a competitor is truly stalling and not tactically working for position. 3 warnings and then a DQ would allow the tournament to continue to run.
That;s a good idea too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Mallory
I watched the match several times and both are engaging and until Denny said something about this none of us would've know about it. Was a great match and Nathan went hard at him and to Denny's credit he escaped some amazing submission attempts by an amazing submission artist. This was very exciting to watch and could it have been more exciting if he attacked also? Sure but the point is what EBI wants is to bring exciting jits and they have done that. I think people are upset that he just didn't go for kill till the OT and he was honest about it.
At the end of this both these guys are amazing and the match was great just let go of personal attachment of how we feel it should've been done and accept the fact he had a game plan and won't with it. Nothing different than any other sport including ufc and boxing etc....
it's inevitable that someone is going to game every kind of competitive event. I think it was apparent that Orchard was attacking a lot more. It sucks if it's true that only money will change it. There are definitely bjj athletes that only go for the submission no matter what. Guaranteed that if Geo and Boogey weighed the same and were competing against each other...they would not be doing anything but going for the submission.
ExactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by imported_scott
Pretty impressive the obvious respect that these two have have for each other. So much respect for all of the people who have been instrumental in bringing this system to all of us. Was a great match. Thank you both for what you do. Looking forward to more in the future.
Hope to see Denny competing a lot more
I don't need your approval to have a spectators' opinion on a pay per view sporting event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Kan
Wow. That's pretty fucking ridiculous. Eddie works so hard to put this tournament together under his specific ruleset as the ultimate cut-throat, so-excuses, edge-of-your-seat, sub-only tournament and his first black belt ruins everything it stands for by schaubing his way through the finals and than announcing to the world that he threw the fight because he had to much respect for his opponent? That sounds pretty disrespectful to me.
You can't do that, Denny. People paid money to watch those fights. Hell, people BET MONEY on the outcome of those fights!
Orchard vs Denny was not a work, Orchard came after Denny with fire and Denny played it safe until OT. There was no agreement to make it an exibition or a work. EBI does have yellow cards, 2 and you are Dq'd. You get a yellow card when stalling is extremely obvious like the dude Boogey just fought. I didn't ref that match because I didn't want to have anything to do with big match ups like that where 2 of 10p's top warriors go against each other. Sean, the owner of Dream Jiu Jitsu Tournament reffed that match.
Were there any parts of that match that warranted a yellow card? It would have to have been a painfully obvious stall for Sean to have given a yellow card.
The reason EBI 1 & 2 were not streamed was because we wanted to iron out as many kinks as possible before we start making people pay online. From now on I will make sure to do whatever I can to prevent competitors from strategically going into OT, including Dana White type motivational speeches to the finalists right before they go up :-)
Overall the show was epic, we're editing it right now and it should be on my YouTube channel within a few weeks.
Geo's journey to his second EBI championship was insane, and so was Cobrina Black Belt Fabio Passos journey to the finals.
Thank you all for the support! :)
Entertaining...
Nathan, were you chewing gum during the match? I've seen others do it. I personally would have choked to death.
How can you throw a fight when you won?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Hachey
His statement about betting is spot on though ... you can justify the morality of not taking the game to him in the match portion but IF I had bet on it, and if its considered a professional event I would be pissed as a spectator. ... for arguments sake if you had bet on a hockey game and fouynd out that the other tema intentionally didt score to put it in OT.... you would snap ... If Denny had announced that at the start of there match .. no one could say anything ... but to say it after words ... takes away the "nice thing" that was done for Nathan. Its respectful when something happens like Terrere handing his bb over to the guy that gave it to him instead of fighting ... not telling the planet till after isnt the same thing. And telling them afterwards negates the nice thing .... to say I wouldnt be happy to watch those two perform and fight as an exhibition is fair. Amazing fighters and grapplers whom I would love to see play full tilt or playing ... but if I was a fan on the outside looking in and I found this out I would be disappointed ... I got nothin but love for both of those guys, and I think Denny had good intentions, I still think it sours things slightly ... just my opinion
And to be fair you can claim no bet would have been lost but there is over under betting, ways of loss etc ... that betting entails. I know it isnt a gambling sport lol, but if its gonna be a proffesionally ran spectator sport it has to be treated as such. Not just for us die hard jits lovers but for the average couch potato we hope will eventually watch our sport too.
Intentionally not trying submit your opponent in a sub-only tournament is throwing the fight!Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Alexander
He won though...He just used a strategy you don't agree with, doesn't change anything with betting etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Hachey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser Taylor
You've never bet on a grappling event before, have you? If you only bet on the winner or loser, the odds would be terrible and no one would bother. That why they increase the spread by, not only betting on the winner, but also the method of winning, time of submission, etc. I bet on the last Metamoris and the sports book included winner, winner by arm lock, winner by choke, winner by leg lock, and winner by any other submission. No where in there did it include winner by intentionally dragging the match into overtime and not letting the other guy submit you the quickest.
I understand the betting part, but I think gamblers' feelings and interests are the last people a sporting event should care about. The argument hinges fully on the integrity of the event that presents itself as a submission-only, attack-mode, that caters itself to not only the jiu-jitsu hardcore grapplers, but "to the masses worldwide" as Eddie stated in the EBI video. This means: you can take your non-jiu-jitsu friend and s/he should be enthralled because they know they are simply looking for someone to TAP. They don't have to ask about points or advantages, etc. Simply tap. Denny's only mistake, in my opinion, is that he revealed his strategy on here. We would not have been the wiser.
That's absolutely false. When you bet on sports, you don't make money by just betting on who wins and who loses. There are so many other things to bet on. In MMA you bet on what round the fight ends, decision/dub/KO/TKO/etc. Hell even in Metamoris and grappling events you can bet on who wins, if it's a draw, how fast the sub comes, and whether the sub is a choke, leg lock, or arm lock, etc. That increases the spread, more money gets involved, and it becomes a bigger deal. In basketball people would flip the fuck out if they found out a player was point shaving (deliberately not scoring as much on purpose) because it fucks with the spread and can cost you a lot of money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser Taylor
I agree with this. I also would much rather be "publicly executed" (creepy terminology also for a grappling match) than to be told afterwards that I wasn't worth competing 100% against, and that my opponent held back on me because they didn't want to embarrass me or make me look bad. I think that's disrespectful and in poor taste. If that's a legit concern, you just do what some teams do and decide the winner before hand and just close out. I think close outs suck also, but I'd rather be forced to close out by a coach and teammate than to bust my ass to beat someone, lose, and then be told afterwards that they didn't even really try to beat me out of some strange notion of "respect" for me. I would just feel mind fucked at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
I'm glad Eddie said he's going to take steps to ensure that doesn't happen again.
So first of all why would any athlete or team care about what the public is betting on? That is the stupidest argument brought up on this post! Secondly Denny didn't do anything out of what any problems team or athlete does and that is have a game plan. Everyone here watches UFC and I assume bets on that and how many fights have been game planned there? I remember Condit avoiding Diaz and it was horrible but Condit won with his game plan. Bottom line is the match was exciting as hell and Nathan went hard at Denny and he was able to escape. Outside of the desire for both of them to "attack" at 100% that is the only complaint but Nathan did and it took everything Denny had to escape those. In OT which is always more exciting in every sport anyways they both went for the kill. In an age of non respectable athletes appreciate honesty from one and again the match was awesome so enjoy the match and quit complaining. It was a million times better than most UFC fights
I don't think any athlete should care about what anyone would bet on. I can't speak for what Joseph Hackey said.Quote:
Originally Posted by imported_scott
I disagree that OT is more exciting. In grappling I would rather see a match contested where any and all positions and transitions are possible. Do I think that the OT forma of EBI is way more exciting than a referee or judge's decision? Hell yeah. 110% yes absolutely.
My only real issue as a spectator is this. Denny and Orchard would both fuck me up. But let's say I get to do an EBI match with either one, and I play super tight defense to get to OT. All of a sudden I get to start in positions that I would never realistically get an opportunity to attack from, had I played according to what Eddie Bravo had in mind when he created all of this. Denny didn't only say that he was playing a defensive strategy. I think had he only said that the reaction by myself and others would be very different. he explicitly came out and said he did not want to even try to submit or "execute" Nate Orchard. That's very different than just being defensive. You can play a defensive or counter attack strategy and still find plenty of opportunities for submissions.
Eddie Bravo created EBI in the spirit of grapplers going all out for the finish. The whole point of this has been to discourage that strategy, so when arguably Eddie's top guy comes out and says that he basically did the exact opposite of what seems to be the spirit of EBI, it's just kind of weird. I have no issues with game plans at all. But Denny didn't say that was his game plan until later. I have no issue with game planning. I just think it's a little odd to have a game plan that explicitly states that you're going to avoid trying to submit somebody in the finals match of a submission-only tournament. Just think about that for a second.
I'm not complaining at all, and you might not have been talking about me. I think EBI 1 was awesome, and everything I've seen from EBI 2 is awesome. I can't wait to see everything else, and I think EBI has a bright future and I'm glad that it does. I'm a big fan of Eddie, Denny, Orchard, Geo, Boogey, Glover, Cooper, Tonon, Yoshida, and everyone involved in both of the first 2 events. I do think it's way better than most UFC fights. I just think the revelations from Denny around the match with he and Orchard are sort of weird, but that doesn't take away the fact that I am enjoying the fuck out of everything Eddie and 10p are doing.
I wonder if they need to get rid of overtime? It'd hard to follow, even for fellow grapplers let alone the general public, and it doesn't even really accomplish what it is supposed to. Both this bout and in the previous EBI final, the overtime didn't give a decisive winner and the ref had to go to a time keeper to find out who the winner was. When the winners hand was raised it was a surprise to everyone. What's the point of that?
How about this. It's a submission only tournament. If there is no submission, you both lose.
The betting is a non-argument. Anyone can play a defensive strategy to win in the OT. It's EBI's job from here on out to find a way to stop that (yellow cards) or to discourage it (eddie's hype talks or community backlash like what's happening here).
And how would you setup an overtime where all transitions are possible? Just give them an extra 5 minutes? What if nothing more happens in those 5 minutes again? Judge it on points? Then people will just wait for the time points count and play the point game. The way ADCC works right now, both are started on the feet and the win goes to the wrestler. It's incredibly boring defensive wrestling between subpar wrestlers. The point of the OT in EBI is action and giving the win to the better JJ practitioner, not wrestler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Nall
When a fight goes to decision, no one knows who is going to win. There is a moment of buildup to see who gets the decision. Ref walks over, pauses and raises the winner's hand. Same here, I think it works great. It also leaves the match in the competitor's hands. Their skill determines their escape/sub times. I also think it worked great in the finals you are noting that it supposedly didn't work for. It forced action in a defensive match. What are your options? An overtime point match? A takedown battle? We know those fail? Just do it like metamoris and have a draw? I think that's ok, but rather indecisive and I don't like how the competitors can just decide to play it easy because they are ok with a draw but don't want to risk losing. With this, someone will lose and there will be action. I just think the yellow cards need to get more active. Change it to three for a DQ and use them often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Hachey
I'm not saying I would do anything different. I think the EBI overtime format is very entertaining. I definitely wouldn't rather have it go to point. I think sub only should be sub only. ADCC does a good job of sort of blending a no points time period into all of their matches, but they're not a sub only tournament. I don't think they should be either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Eddy
Ideally I do think it would be cool to give people extra time, but then it runs into the problem you said of what happens if there's no finish? At some point you could get a match that lasts forever. So I do like the EBI overtime, and it's pretty damn exciting. I think as long as the competitors that are invited are skilled enough where it's believable that they could end up on the back or in spider web then I really enjoy watching OT. The Geo/Glover OT was one of my favorite parts of a match since Kron Gracie vs Garry Tonon.
I think Jeff Glover is doing something really cool with his new Sunday Roll Out tournament where he's changing the rules every 90 days so that people can't start gaming the system. My concern with EBI was that people might just start practicing finishing from the back and spider web and then try to hold off until OT. I think it could be cool if Eddie changed the dead zones every few tournaments. So say right before EBI 3 he announces that if a match goes to OT you can start either in the truck or with a front headlock, or a vice grip, whatever. Then the next EBI could start either from the honey hole and maybe a locked kimura grip.
Just a thought. If nothing changes I still think it's great.
In theory I like it but I don't think that's really much different than a draw. On paper it's different but in the end you still know that neither person won.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Hachey
The best way to get submissions in most of your matches is still on a financial incentive basis, and I think I have a good solution. I've said it before. You pay or competitors a base level, but not that mcuh, but you tell them that everyone gets a bonus if there's a submission. You say the winner gets a cash bonus, but the loser also gets a bonus, just not as much as the winner, but still a bonus.
This way the worst possible outcome is no submission. There comes a point in even sub only matches where it's better to hang on and stall out than to risk losing the match by trying an escape or counter. If someone has their back taken and there's 2 mins left and they're just dug in like Home Alone and not moving at all, if they knew they'd get a cash bonus even if they got RNC'd or armlocked during an escape attempt, then all of a sudden the best option becomes risking getting finished. Because if they do pull of that escape and manage to win, they get that money, either in victory or defeat.
The OT is perfect and doesn't need to be changed.
I don't find it confusing at all but I know some do for whatever reason, so maybe a clear, concise explanation should be made so it is explained in the same way every time. I know I've heard Eddie explain it maybe 5 or so times now and it's explained differently each time, some better than others. Personally I think the baseball analogy of 'extra innings' works best.
I also think a continued 'pep talk' like Eddie said is all that should be needed at the start 'If you are both still fucking around on your feet 2min in, someone sit the fuck down and engage'
To me EBI is the closest to perfect rule set I've seen for grappling but if I'm watching BJJ I want to see 90% of the match on the ground not standing handsies.
I don't think the OT should be changed either. But do you think it could possibly be cool if they switched up the dead zone starting positions for the OT every few tournaments? Or do you think it should just stay spider web and back? I dig it either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Bruhn
I also like the extra innings analogy, and I think a shoot out analogy could be cool too. It might make more sense of why you'd start from the back or spider web.
Yeah man handsies in bjj sucks. I only enjoy watching standup in grappling if it's 2 guys with killer stand up. Like Rafael Lovato Jr vs Andre Galvao at Metamoris? Or Buchecha Galvao? That was pretty gangster stand up. 90% of BJJ dudes gi or no-gi I do not want to see on the feet. Great point and I hope Eddie's pep talk involves that. In Rafa Mendes and Cobrinha's first ADCC final it was a fucking barn burner. Then when they changed the rules so no one could pull guard without a penalty their matches at ADCC turned to shit (like in 2013).
I've always loved Eddie's opinion on "If you can't take anyone down after a minute or 2, just pull guard. Why pay money to ground fight and not ground fight?" Some purists might disagree with me on that.
I've known Nate for 2 years now. He lives, breathes, geeks out over jits period. He was put on this earth to do what he's doing period. I saw him go from purple belt to black in 18 months?? Nate help me out here.
Point is, he wants to submit everyone one no matter what. Friend, competitor, person breaking and entering. This is what he was trained to do by Eddie and eddies system.
Because of Nathan he's changed my whole outlook of jits and how I used it. Because of him I go for things I know put me in jeopardy of the TAP..... But, because of this I'm out of the safety boring positions I've known so well. I'll always TAP and hopefully the end result will be TAP less attack more.
Thanks brother for opening my eyes to Eddies System and your personal touch and love for jits!