Popovitch: Gi is boring, I don't like it, No-gi is a better Sport

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Originally Posted by Ericp

I think the point of the video is that he likes competing No Gi and not Gi. Not that he wants to completely throw away the gi

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yes. This argument from authority logical fallacy stuff is crazy. I'm not even sure what the point of the TS was. This is a no-gi forum. You're preaching to the choir. Of course Pablo is saying this. he doesn't compete in the gi. he hasn't in YEARS and YEARS. He prefers no-gi because he thinks the gi game is going to a place that he doesn't like. A lot of people think so. Even gi players.

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Originally Posted by Aiseop

This turned into a hate the gi free for all for some reason, instead of paying attention to what Popovitch said.

On that: I disagree with unequivocal claims, especially for claiming something through solely subjective means as "boredom." You have both exciting gi and nogi matches. This weekend at the NY Pro, both Lo/Keenan and the Miyao/Grippo matches were fucking awesome to watch. Let's not forget the Rafa/Clark Metamoris match either. On the other hand, you can claim the Lister/Barnett match was boring until the very end, as it was NOT a dynamic match, with one guy always on the bottom. ON the other hand, part 2, the Tonon/Dale match, with its constant movement and wicked ending was exciting to watch. It's just intellectually lazy to make unequivocal statements when so much of it is subjective and so many examples can be shown that disagrees with the premise.

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Agree. By and large I think no-gi is more fun to watch, but you have exciting and boring matches in both. Fun grapplers will be fun to watch no matter what they wear. I hate the fucking worm guard but that Keenan vs Lo match was awesome. I love no-gi but Pablo Popovitch matches are usually not very exciting at all. He's still incredible.

Sometimes I think the backlash of no-gi only people is disappointing, and comes as a sad surprise. one thing I always admired about no-gi heavy grapplers was that they didn't ever finger wave at people that chose to ear the gi. They just said wanted to be respected. They are respected now, but 90% of the online community and way more than that of the community that just shuts up and trains.

Metamoris 4 was almost all no-gi. Metamoris 5 is almost all no-gi. The main event of M3 was no-gi. ADCC is next year. No-Gi worlds and EBI 1 and 2 just happened. There's never been a better time to train no-gi.

I finally watched this video- he mentions that Gi is boring and there is a lot of stalling, and dealing with grips.

Pablo is widely known as one of the most boring no gi competitors (at the world class level), who does a lot of stalling. He has also been criticized for using (a ton) of illegal grips against Marcelo when he won his ADCC championship.

He really isn't someone I would use to promote the exciting nature of No Gi.

I know I'm coming across as a hater, but I'm really not- I have literally only watched 3 Pablo matches in their entirety- I'm just sharing what the majority of people in the BJJ and ADCC No Gi community think of his game.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

Forgot about that too. I love that restart. Okay you wanna do that? Heel hook. never done one before or since then either.

:( I'm pretty sure Marcelo has cited that match as one of the reasons that he stopped doing absolutes after 2009. I think he said it hurt him more than he let on and that it did some long term damage.

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Marcelo didnt suffer any serious injuries during the match. I'm guessing that the biggest reason for not doing the absolute the last ADCC he was in (2011) was because of their new weigh in policy...ADCC can weigh you multiple times during the weekend.

Thus, it is very hard to compete in extra matches when you are at the top of your weight class (169.5 lbs) and have to worry about making weight again.

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Originally Posted by kying418

Marcelo didnt suffer any serious injuries during the match. I'm guessing that the biggest reason for not doing the absolute the last ADCC he was in (2011) was because of their new weigh in policy...ADCC can weigh you multiple times during the weekend.

Thus, it is very hard to compete in extra matches when you are at the top of your weight class (169.5 lbs) and have to worry about making weight again.

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I swore I read something where he said that although not seriously hurt, that competing in absolutes over the years has given him random aches and pains, and that he just didn't feel the drive to want to do it anymore. I think 2007 was his best performance even though Drysdale ended the party in the absolute final. But 7 subs in 7 matches while debuting the guillotine and north south choke was awesome. Marcelo even joked and said he still got 8 submissions in all 8 matches, but that "the 8th submission was me tapping." Such a cool spirit to have.

That ADCC (2011) was crazy with the constant weigh ins. Frankly I don't know how some people did it. Ryan Hall came in and wondered "Did I do this right?" he looked so tiny and gaunt, but Rafa Mendes was walking around at the same weight not only looking healthy, but totally ripped and swole. Marcelo looked big for 169.5 and I wonder if you know, did he have a hard time making weight on day 2? I heard some people did but got passes anyways, like Palhares.

I don't know if they had the same policy at ADCC 2013, because there was no press, but I'm guessing they did?

Here's a Marcelo highlight from ADCC 2011 for the hell of it. Making it look easy out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-5HCG7wC2s

Wrestling doesn't have absolutes, but it does make you weigh in every day of a multiple day tournament. Often they will give you 1-2 pounds extra each day, but if you are cutting 10-15 pounds, losing tons of water and burning tons of calories that doesn't help too much.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

I swore I read something where he said that although not seriously hurt, that competing in absolutes over the years has given him random aches and pains, and that he just didn't feel the drive to want to do it anymore. I think 2007 was his best performance even though Drysdale ended the party in the absolute final. But 7 subs in 7 matches while debuting the guillotine and north south choke was awesome. Marcelo even joked and said he still got 8 submissions in all 8 matches, but that "the 8th submission was me tapping." Such a cool spirit to have.

That ADCC (2011) was crazy with the constant weigh ins. Frankly I don't know how some people did it. Ryan Hall came in and wondered "Did I do this right?" he looked so tiny and gaunt, but Rafa Mendes was walking around at the same weight not only looking healthy, but totally ripped and swole. Marcelo looked big for 169.5 and I wonder if you know, did he have a hard time making weight on day 2? I heard some people did but got passes anyways, like Palhares.

I don't know if they had the same policy at ADCC 2013, because there was no press, but I'm guessing they did?

Here's a Marcelo highlight from ADCC 2011 for the hell of it. Making it look easy out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-5HCG7wC2s

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While Marcelo didnt have trouble staying on weight for the weekend, I know it wasnt pleasant- as he wasn't able to eat much even after competing on Saturday.

I remember years back when he competed in a Grapplers Quest tournament. He was waiting in the bleachers for hours, waiting for all the kid's to finish competing so he could get on the mat.

I told him I would have asked for a special stipulation that if I was going to compete, I would compete at a certain time...he told me he would never think to ask for special treatment like that. So while I know he stayed on point with his weight for ADCC, I know he also wouldnt ask for special consideration if he had not.

He's a better man than me. At my last tournament, I overheard the directors complain that there weren't enough brown and black belts. I humbly stepped in and suggested that brown and blacks should go first (after the kids). Many of us are coaches for our whites and blues and we have a hard time balancing coaching them while waiting to compete. So they don't compete. I like what The Good Fight organization has done, too, by allowing brown and blacks to compete for free. You'll always have whites and blues competing, as it is new to them, and a novelty; but for many of my training buddies, they stopped competing because it is a PAIN IN THE ASS to pay to wait for 4-5 hours, while barely eating, etc.

Just want to point out that US Grappling is awesome and has advanced/black belt competitors go first so they can compete and then focus on coaching students.

USG has also been doing sub only for at least 6 years now.

I'm just going to relay my personal experience as it applies. Keep in mind I am in a very isolated market, and teach for free. After roughly 8 years mostly gi, I moved to a location with no BJJ within a 3 hour drive. I finally found a place to train at a muay thai school. Nobody was interested in doing gi stuff, so I dropped it. I had been following 10th planet since 2004 while in the gi. I had years of lockdown in the gi and a basic use and knowledge in rubber guard. I immediately dove deeper into 10th planet to keep pace with no-gi. Over the years a few gi players have moved into town, and have no choice but to do mainly no gi. Since I am very open to the gi, I always tell people that during rolling it is perfectly ok to bring gi's and roll in the gi if that is what they like. Ya know what, it almost never happens. Except for the times when one guy is preparing for Gi tournament, and some of us put on the gi to help him prepare. He brought a pile of gi's from his old gym for people to use and it still hasn't happened. Yes, we are now a hotbox, but I don't think one new person has showed up because of the hotbox, or even knowing what it is. The no-gi has taken off beyond my expectations, average class in 10-12, with some classes going into the 20's. While gi stays nearly non existent, even though we have at least 5 people with gi backgrounds and one "champion for the cause" that would love to have packed gi classes a few times a week. It is an interesting study because we are isolated and money is not a factor. It came to its present state very organically.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

yes. This argument from authority logical fallacy stuff is crazy. I'm not even sure what the point of the TS was. This is a no-gi forum. You're preaching to the choir.

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As I said, I posted this because it is a sign that "[t]imes are changing when such a high level gi guy of Brazilian origin would openly say this."

I don't know of any other guys like Popovitch (gi based, Brazilian born, 5x ADCC medalist) who have ever said these kinds of things so publicly before.

I think it is a bellwether of a significant shift in perception regarding no-gi.

Of course, I 100% agree that the appeal to authority is non-persuasive on this topic.

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Originally Posted by Jack Hanley

Of course, I 100% agree that the appeal to authority is non-persuasive on this topic.

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I'll wait to agree until Eddie chimes in.

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Originally Posted by Greg W

I'm just going to relay my personal experience as it applies. Keep in mind I am in a very isolated market, and teach for free. After roughly 8 years mostly gi, I moved to a location with no BJJ within a 3 hour drive. I finally found a place to train at a muay thai school. Nobody was interested in doing gi stuff, so I dropped it. I had been following 10th planet since 2004 while in the gi. I had years of lockdown in the gi and a basic use and knowledge in rubber guard. I immediately dove deeper into 10th planet to keep pace with no-gi. Over the years a few gi players have moved into town, and have no choice but to do mainly no gi. Since I am very open to the gi, I always tell people that during rolling it is perfectly ok to bring gi's and roll in the gi if that is what they like. Ya know what, it almost never happens. Except for the times when one guy is preparing for Gi tournament, and some of us put on the gi to help him prepare. He brought a pile of gi's from his old gym for people to use and it still hasn't happened. Yes, we are now a hotbox, but I don't think one new person has showed up because of the hotbox, or even knowing what it is. The no-gi has taken off beyond my expectations, average class in 10-12, with some classes going into the 20's. While gi stays nearly non existent, even though we have at least 5 people with gi backgrounds and one "champion for the cause" that would love to have packed gi classes a few times a week. It is an interesting study because we are isolated and money is not a factor. It came to its present state very organically.

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This is fairly similar to how it goes at my school. One difference is that we have at least four schools with gi programs very near us. We have one or two guys who previously trained in the gi and the rest were new to submission grappling when they started with us in no-gi. The vast majority of them have absolutely no desire to ever take up the gi. A huge majority of them also compete (which makes me unbelievably happy).

We do occasionally get gi guys who move into our area, drop into our school, and then decide to join somewhere else with a gi program. So, we do miss out on those guys. But, it seems like a good portion of them come often anyway to our free open mat so that they can roll with our guys in no-gi.

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Originally Posted by Jack Hanley

As I said, I posted this because it is a sign that "[t]imes are changing when such a high level gi guy of Brazilian origin would openly say this."

I don't know of any other guys like Popovitch (gi based, Brazilian born, 5x ADCC medalist) who have ever said these kinds of things so publicly before.

I think it is a bellwether of a significant shift in perception regarding no-gi.

Of course, I 100% agree that the appeal to authority is non-persuasive on this topic.

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Fair enough. I think there are a lot of Brazilian guys that really love training no-gi and are open about how much they love it. I think it's shifting also. These are just well known names too. Marcelo Garcia, Murilo Santana, Rafa Mendes, Braulio Estima, Victor Estima, Andre Galvao, Vinny Magalhaes, Caio Terra, Buchecha, Cyborg, Kron Gracie, Cobrinha, Claudio Calasans, Bruno Frazzato, Leandro Lo, Lucas Leite...

Bruno Frazzato is as good a gi guy as you'll find and think he's teaching full time at AOJ now, no-gi classes everyday on top of the advanced no-gi classes that Rafa is teaching. AOJ had daily no-gi classes, if not 2 a day, and they're as good as any academy you'll find.

The list is pretty big man. The only well known top cream of the crop Brazilian guys that I know genuinely don't really enjoy training no-gi that much are Gui Mendes (even though he's competed no-gi in the past), Michael Langhi, Bruno Malfacine, Paulo Miyao, and I can't think of many more.

I'm glad it's shifting. I'm sure there are a few guys that don't really enjoy no-gi but still do well in it. I think that list is getting smaller and smaller.

Yep, no-gi is an awesome sport. It's pretty hard not to like it.

I think there are two separate things going on right now:

1) There is momentum building behind no-gi as a sport, and

2) there is momentum building behind 100% no-gi training.

There seems (to me) to be a movement of uniting all grappling sports, the gi maybe lost in this movement.
Many people seem to think;
- the gi slows grappling and makes it less entertaining to watch.
- the fact that people wear clothing does not make gi training more applicable to self defense. (and or self defense is not necessarily of paramount importance when it comes to combat sports.)
- rules sets that favor a particular grappling tradition are not as interesting a venue as those that have more inclusive rule sets.
- the perceived dominance of BJJ over other grappling traditions is a result of cultural, economic and historical factors rather than a testament to the superiority of the style.

IMO by;
1. being no-gi
2. creating and seeking out competition formats with inclusive rule sets
3. openly incorporating techniques from any grappling tradition

10thP is playing what will come to be seen as a historically significant role in the evolution/unification of grappling arts. I understand why it is called 10thP jiujitsu but I wish it was called 10th Planet Grappling. Think of how important techniques from wrestling, sambo, judo ect are to the 10thP system.

Jesus, guys. Judo is still HUGE in the world. Easy with the death knell of sambo, judo, and BJJ...

go easy with the confirmation bias, folks. I love no-gi. Would love to be a moon and train under it, but there's still a big, bigger market for gi. let's just go easy.

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Originally Posted by Aiseop

Jesus, guys. Judo is still HUGE in the world. Easy with the death knell of sambo, judo, and BJJ...

go easy with the confirmation bias, folks. I love no-gi. Would love to be a moon and train under it, but there's still a big, bigger market for gi. let's just go easy.

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I think I agree. Some people want to play chess. Some people want to play speed chess. You're going to have to have a pretty good argument to show that speed-chess is going to totally replace the chess that people have been playing for a long time (which can take hours).

I suspect that time pressure adds something to any game.

I can't speak for everyone but the changes to the rules in Judo have made me lose interest as a spectator. This is a widespread opinion amongst judo fans.

I dont believe we see it as a "death knell", more of an evolution or decrease in gi popularity, sambo techniques are increasingly represented in grappling competition in the US and the value of judo techniques (gi or not) is increasingly well respected. We want a diversity in grappling because that is the origin of diversification in technique. But it must be accompanied by a decrease in the dominance of BJJ biased rules sets. We want an increase in viewership for grappling sports but think that the gi will have to go in order for that to happen.

As of now the overwhelming majority of vehicles are powered by gas engines, would that make any opinion that the future of vehicles is likely to be with a different powerplant confirmation bias; simply because most of us would like to see the change? There is still a bigger market for gas powered cars after all.

I think we can point to many indicators that there is a movement in the grappling community away from the dominance of the gi (not a death of gi sports). As of now, grappling sports with the gi are far more popular worldwide (in the US wrestling is pretty big as grappling goes, much more widely practiced than judo ect) that is not evidence that a change is not wanted or happening.

Unification through diversification.

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe

I think I agree. Some people want to play chess. Some people want to play speed chess. You're going to have to have a pretty good argument to show that speed-chess is going to totally replace the chess that people have been playing for a long time (which can take hours).

I suspect that time pressure adds something to any game.

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Why is it a matter of replacement, couldnt speed chess become more popular while traditional chess still exist? I dont see anyone here claiming that all gi sports will die in favor of no-gi.

Several problem with the analogy of speed chess to no-gi.

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Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson

There seems (to me) to be a movement of uniting all grappling sports, the gi maybe lost in this movement.
Many people seem to think;
- the gi slows grappling and makes it less entertaining to watch.
- the fact that people wear clothing does not make gi training more applicable to self defense. (and or self defense is not necessarily of paramount importance when it comes to combat sports.)
- rules sets that favor a particular grappling tradition are not as interesting a venue as those that have more inclusive rule sets.
- the perceived dominance of BJJ over other grappling traditions is a result of cultural, economic and historical factors rather than a testament to the superiority of the style.

IMO by;
1. being no-gi
2. creating and seeking out competition formats with inclusive rule sets
3. openly incorporating techniques from any grappling tradition

10thP is playing what will come to be seen as a historically significant role in the evolution/unification of grappling arts. I understand why it is called 10thP jiujitsu but I wish it was called 10th Planet Grappling. Think of how important techniques from wrestling, sambo, judo ect are to the 10thP system.

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I think there is a lot of truth here. Submission Grappling is way more than just BJJ, and it seems like everything is going in a much more inclusive direction where "submission grappling" or "grappling" may become the primary label/umbrella concept instead of the more specific "jiu-jitsu".

This is already reflected in the name of the most prestigious event in unjacketed submission grappling: the "Abu Dhabi Combat Club Submission Fighting Championship". ADCC is not a "jiu-jitsu" tournament. It is a "submission fighting" tournament.

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe

I think I agree. Some people want to play chess. Some people want to play speed chess. You're going to have to have a pretty good argument to show that speed-chess is going to totally replace the chess that people have been playing for a long time (which can take hours).

I suspect that time pressure adds something to any game.

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I think of the relationship between gi and no-gi sub grappling as being more like that of Karate and Muay Thai.

Edit:
Actually, "karate" is too vague a term and encompasses too many things.

Tae Kwon Do and Muay Thai is probably more the way I actually think of them.

This is AJ Sousa who runs Pablo's academy now. 2013 Brown Belt No Gi World Champion and Lloyd Irvin BJJ Kumite Competitor. Also one of the only guys to submit Garry Tonon with an ArmBar :)http://youtu.be/QGe1kX8SRJU