If you've not seen them you should REALLY check them out. Fantastic stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arman Fathi
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If you've not seen them you should REALLY check them out. Fantastic stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arman Fathi
My 2 cents, RG is cool. RG is fantastic. RG has some of the most painful subs I've ever experienced. Then again, so does Truck. Master Eddie (or as he prefers to be called: Not late for smoke break Eddie) developed the rubber guard for MMA/nogi situations.
From what I've seen, you're training at a gi school, right? no one is punching you in the face, or intends to do so. RG is a great addition to any already established game, but imo, if that's all you learned, you'd be a one trick pony with a nasty triangle and sucky overall grappling. Go to class. Watch MTS. Read all the RG books you want, but in the absence of an instructor who can tweak and TEACH you RG, leave it alone. Come back at blue belt, your mind will still be open.
"And open mind is a wondrous thing, but too open a mind and your brains fall out."
Edit: I've been grappling for a while, going on 10 years now. that doesn't make me good, 10P blue belts still mop the mats with me. I can hold my own with the BJJ purple belts in the area, but the Decatur Moon and BMAC are wizards of a different breed than anyone else with whom I've ever had the pleasure of training. I've been playing with RG for probably 5 years now, and it's still not good. I still get passed more than I get control. Only since December have I actually made any progress with it, and it's all because BMAC was hands on showing me the holes in the guard. Before I trained with him, it was just another "cheap trick" in my mesh bag of moves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo
I wouldn't say that. One of the reasons I'm training JJ is as a martial art. I'm also training in a gi because I have to, not because I want to. It seems pointless and unrealistic to me to wear a gi. In a self defense situation I want the guy's back, but if I find myself on my back with someone in my guard and I have some RG, seems reasonable to use it. I am a believer that RG is the best guard for MMA.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Schrimsher
As I've stated before, I'm learning fundamentals at least 4 nights a week in fundamentals classes, and the entire progression from white to blue at my school is curriculum based with a 7-stage advancement system that takes you to bluebelt. The idea that RG is all I am learning isn't accurate.Quote:
imo, if that's all you learned, you'd be a one trick pony with a nasty triangle and sucky overall grappling.
Also as I stated before I'm planning my first trip to Altus to train with Jason to get help on my RG and other 10p techniques. I'm also attending the 3-day training camp and Master Bravo seminar in May. I'm hoping to get down to Altus as often as possible to get real coaching for my 10p work, while I continue to learn and drill my fundamentals at Lovato's.
My theory is, and has always been, that I can use RG as an extension to the closed guard system I'm already learning. Even at the most basic level it's got great control positions and frequent omoplata transitions. That alone, if I can refine just the basic RG positions, will give people something new to think about when rolling with me. Over time I hope to get to the point where I can sub guys right out of RG, or transition to traditional subs like triangles and armbars from within it.
It does not seem unreasonable to me that if I'm learning BJJ at class, plus drilling and reading and watching videos at home, plus going to a 10p moon on a regular basis for checkups, troubleshooting, and coaching, that I should be able to add a RG to my game, in the gi, and execute it at Lovato's.
Only time will tell, but that's my plan.
I'm not trying to add RG because I'm a Smoke Serpent fan and think Eddie is the coolest guy in the universe. I'm learning it because it feels right to me. But I'm spending a lot more time learning fundamentals than I am anything else. Somehow this point hasn't come through in this thread :(
+1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric
ive been pulling rubber guard more and more. i think its good to play around with all the techniques you know. it makes jiu jitsu more fun. obviously i listen to my instructor aswell but he doesnt really know a whole lot about 10th planet.
Whatever. Do what you want. All I see is someone asking people who DO know how to do a thing for help on learning the thing, and the majority consensus is "Be patient" and your response is basically "I am patient... but."
I never even implied that you shouldn't learn RG, all I ever intended to convey was: "Don't teach RG to yourself"
If you're going to a moon, great, do them a favor and don't have bad habits when you get there.
Yeah I'm not known for my patience. I have been taking every response to this thread seriously and considering them all carefully. One response in particular I've spent a great deal of time considering.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Schrimsher
My training partner's respect. This is extremely important to me, and I've been considering how using RG may affect people's perception of me, and willingness to train with me.
I had not previously considered that playing RG, or any other non Lovato-style techniques, might affect what people thought of me. I was ignorant and assumed they would look at it the same way I would, which would be to say "oh that's cool, let's see if that works for me". But not everyone is as open minded about things, and for many students this is the only martial art and the only dojo they have ever stepped foot in. I can see how that may give them the impression that what they are learning is the best, and only thing, they should work on.
Despite disagreeing with that idea, I do not want to offend or disrespect anyone who has that opinion. Just because someone is wrong doesn't mean I don't still want their respect. :)
So thanks to this thread I'm going to be very careful about when, and with whom, I practice RG.
Thanks everyone for your responses!
The fastest way to make progress is to follow the program taught by your school. Trying to learn RG when your school is teaching something different isn't very logical and itt will absolutely slow your progress. Also, because people will consistently pass your weak, self taught RG, you won't be respected playing that game and you'll constantly hear that that game (RG) doesn't work.
It makes more sense to work your school's curriculumn until at least blue belt, and then find a training partner at the school who wants to work RG and start drilling and practicing together. That way when you're trying your early attempts at RG and people are passing you, at least you can go to a more traditional technique and recover or tap them. That way, at least your training partners will respect you because they know the only reason they are passing your (Rubber) guard, is because you are working on something new.
+2
Either way embrace where you are training
Training with the gi is fun and won't hurt you until you completely rely on gi grips
I would be pumped to train there , kimono or not
Now that I'm 8.5 years into BJJ, having switched from different schools, and studying the 10th Planet system this last year, it seems to me that the "basics" are things like balance, patience, control, and decisiveness. All techniques we learn hit upon some type of concept whereby you end up in such total control of another person that they stop fighting. The basic techniques as a white belt are simply the first things you learn.
This is a different thing than the most effective techniques to learn as a white belt. If you're at a school that is fairly open, and your instructor is cool enough to let you do 10th P stuff, then it's going to be a great thing for your development. If you're at a school with a rigid curriculum, whereby even the stripes are mapped to techniques, then you're gonna be frustrated and have a hard time.
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm not. I'm extremely grateful and feel very fortunate to be able to train at Lovato's.Quote:
Originally Posted by ben jones
Every instructor who has seen me do any RG was positive and encouraging. On the flip side, I bet if I asked them, they would all encourage me to focus on fundamentals and forget about RG for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
What I feel I've leanred from this thread is that it's going to be important to only use outside techniques in situations where my partner knows what's up and is cool with it.
Just dropping some RG on a bluebelt in my first live roll was a mistake on my part. I should have at least rolled curriculum with the guy and then asked him if I could try it.
My bad
I actually don't think that's the "takeaway" from this. If you are saying your instructors are cool with it, than go for it. Rolling is Randori, and Randori means "free play." It's where you go and test things out against a live, resisting partner. The "free" in your context seems to be a lot more open than some hardcore old-lineage Gracie schools, where you would be actively and consistently discouraged from trying anything outside your formal curriculum. I have about 3 of Lovato's instructionals and, honestly, he seems to love to experiment and work on even esoteric things.
Well, the two major criticisms I'm hearing in this forum are "partner respect" and "you'll slow your learning".Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
On the "slowing my learning" front, I'm not terribly concerned. I think that will work itself out. I tend to think that if I spend 10% of my time doing RG, even if it's a waste of that 10%, if I enjoy it, it's worth it.
The partner respect this is a big one though. I'm not comfortable being "that guy" whom people think is disrespecting my partners, Lovato's approach, or anything else, even if Professor Lovato himself is ok with it.
I realize "free time" is just that, but making sure my partners are aware that I may go off curriculum and are ok with it first seems like a demonstration of my respect for them.
It just seems like a good way to maintain a good image at the gym, give no one any surprises, and pay the proper respect to anyone I'm training with.
I have every intention of continuing to work on RG with some % of my mat time. I'm just planning to be careful when and with whom I practice it. Eventually I'll find enough partners to work with who are supportive and it wont be an issue. But if I just throw RG at guys with them unaware, I may really be risking the appearance of disrespect. That is a perception I want to avoid.
Even if I err on the side of caution, that's ok with me right now. I need the bluebelts to respect me and want to work with me, and that's more important that developing a good RG right now. Eventually it will work itself out, especially if I can build friendships and respect from others BEFORE I start throwing "stuff that don't work" at them.
Aiseop, thank you for your support, I really appreciate it.
And thanks everyone who has been critical of me, I appreciate that as well.
I will add this( and Im at a 10p school)
when a white/blue belt pulls RG on me and fumbles around, yanking and trying to force his foot in my face , Ill be happy to stack and grind my head into his face.
so drill it a ton first and clear the neck/ kung fu CORRECTLY
For what it's worth from your responses it sounds like your personality does not fit with your gym. It doesn't mean the gym isn't great and you wouldn't learn something great either, but you personally need to be somewhere you fit and feel like a brotherhood. My gym we are extremely open minded to anything and everything whether it comes from our coach or a brand new student. Fundamentals are fundamentals 10P has theirs and your gym has its, so the only real difference is what you take away and bring to mats. "Partner respect" is everything, but when I discover something new I'm going to try during our roll, and if I cannot hit the move than I'll ask to try it after. Keep your head up because the main important thing with all of this is to have FUN no matter what anyone tells you. Everything takes time, we all were there once when started. I would strongly say though you should find a place that you can feel encouraged to do what you want and not outcasted because this is just a sport and we are all developing our own unique ways of how to learn, grow, and use the technique we are provided with. I don't know how much this helps, but remember to have fun above all.
P.S. check out the warm ups because there are a lot of "fundamentals" in there that you can drill solo to improve your basic technique.
You only get good at Rubber Guard by repping rubber guard. The more you do it, the better you get at it. If you're a beginner there is going to be a learning curve for all the basics in general but IMO there is no reason you can't work RG as you are growing as well.
I lived in OKC this last summer and most winter and couldn't afford to train at Lovato's though I'd love to, but one of the big turn offs was the no rolling until blue thing. I've never been belted since I almost exclusively train no-gi and the idea of not being able to roll killed me (Although they were very kind and told me they would work with me to get my blue as fast as possible since I have a lot of experience) As to what the blue belt said. He was offering advice, at three months and your first roll, it's rather sound advice.
Look at it like this, if you mastered the concept of an arm lock first, it will make your armlock finishes from rubber guard land at a much higher percentage.
You should be trying to go for the moves you just learned. Even if it means not getting any submissions. Don't be so concerned with "winning" your roll. Its not a tournament, its training. How ever rubber guard is great tool for closed guard and you should be working on that too :) Just make sure you don't slack off on your fundamentals. It does not have to be one or the other. Your Instructor is right, rubber guard can hurt the knees but so can a basic triangle if not done correctly. Hopefully you can have someone who knows the rubber guard well make sure your doing it correctly so you don't hurt yourself.
If you go to open mats, once some people get to know who you are you can get picked up for rolls with blue belts. I've rolled 3 times now, and I'm still less than 3 months in. All three were with blue belts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Osborn
They mainly want to keep new guys from rolling with other new guys and getting into problems. I have not rolled with a white belt yet and I'm in no hurry to.
They tell you no up front, but then once they get to know you, it's kind of merit based. None of the blue belts are breaking any rules when they ask me to roll.
Also you can roll at any level if you come to the competition classes, which are open to everyone.
Finally, I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure that you can roll with anyone once you are 4th stripe white-belt. Which is one rank before yellow-belt. So basically once you get about 2/5 of the way through a normal white-belt progression (2/5 of the way to blue), you are good to go.