Royce Gracie should have at least one technique named after him

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Originally Posted by frank-theman-james

Once again you missed my point and when you get done reading this go ahead and sign off and delete your account here, because this very website and system of jiujitsu was developed by someone when had the wisdom to see that the fight game is and always will be changing. In my and a couple of others comments were addressing that the Gracie family resist change by stating that this is their art that their father created and they have perfected it, but along comes Eddie bravo, and here we all are working very hard to learn his style, which is frowned upon by the Gracie family and even bad mouthed by some of them. I can't tell you how many times I've heard Gracie instructors talk shit bout 10th planet. I dont argue anymore, I simply choose to keep learning all I can from someone who has an open approach to teaching and maybe that's because of my years of kenpo training where we were taught to be open minded of what other arts offered. But I can tell you this while you defend the Gracie's and all their greatness, they would not do likewise in you and your choice to train 10th planet.

I choose this!

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Though I appreciate the overbearing advice, I think I will keep my account, stay open minded, give each man his due, and not have some sort of odd grudge against some guys I have barely met in real life (Royce and Renzo). I know a couple BB under Royce, they dont really talk poorly about TPJJ, and I know one of them does study some of it, so perhaps you have had a different real life intereaction with folks than I have.

I think with your grudge you seem to harbor makes anything positive said about a gracie seem like some sort of defense. I also notice you lump them all together alot, Guys like Renzo are pretty different in personality, approach, and overall philosophy than alot of BJJ guys, and even other gracies. As for Eddie, I think he is very innovative and has some great stuff, but here again we have to lay some credit to these guys you have an odd hate crush on, the gracies. Without em, he may never have taken up BJJ, seen things he wanted to make his own, and then spread what he developed.

If you really think all the gracies are the same, and they dont believe in adapting and changing, I would have to ask, when did you get time to take a poll?

Dude, I don't hate the Gracie family at all. I merely was stating that their resistance to change and evolve would hurt them as it has many other traditional styles that are now fading as the popularity of mma grows. And it would seem to me that you have an agenda with me as it seems you always jump at a chance to have a pissing contest with me, what's the deal? You got a hate fetish with me?

I do not, I generally like engage in a back and forth with anyone. You just seem to always have a negative comment for the Gracies. Given your seminar experience, maybe that is the gist of it. Other than TKD kicks and Gracie hate, I dont think I have had any discussion one way or the other here with you.

Make no mistake I have heard several negative things about a few of the Gracie family, but I think if you say "Gracie Family" and talk in sweeping tones, whether its about Resistance to change or anything else, its sort of putting a whole lot of guys who are not always in the same boat, in the same boat. Now, if you mean particular ones, its an opinion, that I dont think I would contradict. but there are ALOT of guys with the last name Gracie.

Also, if you take any discussions here as a pissing contest, perhaps you are reading too much into internet discussion?

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Originally Posted by stlnl

Arrogant? I have heard similar about the basic thing, but care expound on the other?

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let me find and interview the renzo gracie did concerning the matter. He literally lost his shit over Royce's kids, rener and them, disrespecting one of his students talking about "the real jiu jitsu" and that the student probably should not train with them. He even accused them as trying to turn BJJ into Karate or Kung Fu where they start saying I could show you, but it might kill you.

Listen to rener now. He goes on and on about "real fight situation"...he is in 100% marketing mode and he does talk shit about just about everyone else now. So Renzo pretty much put them and Royce and even Helio on blast about "the real jiu jitsu". They are marketing "Gracie Combatives" as the ultimate in self-defense and in interviews are saying that if it's not gracie university jiu jitsu it's not "real jiu jitsu"

The interview is here...

http://thefightworkspodcast.com/2009.../renzo-gracie/

"You know what happened, my friend: I see a lot of people now, especially my family, saying that. “Oh, I know the real jiu jitsu, you don’t know the real jiu jitsu.” We all learn from the same place, we all develop the same art together, growing up. But for some reason, once they jump in a plane and they move to America they try to sell a product, like the American people are a bunch of fools. Right now, I became American, and I know there are no fools here.

Do they pay for good service? They do. So if you feed them the real technique, if you give them the real sport, and everything like a good product, they will buy it and they don’t care about the price. But don’t try to bullshit them and expect them to accept anything you try to shove down their throat, because this is not the greatest country in the world for no reason. In reality, I see this crap today, “this is the real jiu jitsu”…let me be honest, I see jiu jitsu now turning into Krav Maga. Turn into kung fu! Like they are selling things that will chop your head in half, with a karate chop.

You know, its become a joke. Let me tell you what the real jiu jitsu is: the real jiu jitsu is the one that doesn’t back away from a challenge. It goes at the obstacle and defends its flag. It’s like, if you want to claim that you have the best fighting style, you should be in the UFC kicking some ass. That’s where the best competition is.

So when people call me, saying “this is the real jiu jitsu,” the next thing they are going to say is “I cannot use it, because I could kill you!” [laughs] You know, that’s what I heard my whole life, from those fake martial artists who claim they were better than everybody else. So believe it my friend, I live my whole life watching this and seeing this. We were always against that, and now suddenly one branch of my family is turning into that! It’s claiming that, but doesn’t go on the proving ground to prove it, does not step into the place where he should actually be representing jiu jitsu, to do it." - Renzo Gracie

Now Rener responded and apologized for any missunderstanding but STILL maintained that it was the real jiu jitsu, yada yada in that he thought that the defensive attacking from guard was the best system...he also said that he did not feel the need to prove the system saying that his camp would win some and Gracie Barra's camp would win some.

What I love about 10th planet is they put their shit on the mat. People may not like eddie...people may not like eddie belting folks no-gi...but they can't argue with the system.

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Originally Posted by James Davis

let me find and interview the renzo gracie did concerning the matter. He literally lost his shit over Royce's kids, rener and them, disrespecting one of his students talking about "the real jiu jitsu" and that the student probably should not train with them. He even accused them as trying to turn BJJ into Karate or Kung Fu where they start saying I could show you, but it might kill you.

Listen to rener now. He goes on and on about "real fight situation"...he is in 100% marketing mode and he does talk shit about just about everyone else now. So Renzo pretty much put them and Royce and even Helio on blast about "the real jiu jitsu". They are marketing "Gracie Combatives" as the ultimate in self-defense and in interviews are saying that if it's not gracie university jiu jitsu it's not "real jiu jitsu"

The interview is here...

http://thefightworkspodcast.com/2009.../renzo-gracie/

"You know what happened, my friend: I see a lot of people now, especially my family, saying that. “Oh, I know the real jiu jitsu, you don’t know the real jiu jitsu.” We all learn from the same place, we all develop the same art together, growing up. But for some reason, once they jump in a plane and they move to America they try to sell a product, like the American people are a bunch of fools. Right now, I became American, and I know there are no fools here.

Do they pay for good service? They do. So if you feed them the real technique, if you give them the real sport, and everything like a good product, they will buy it and they don’t care about the price. But don’t try to bullshit them and expect them to accept anything you try to shove down their throat, because this is not the greatest country in the world for no reason. In reality, I see this crap today, “this is the real jiu jitsu”…let me be honest, I see jiu jitsu now turning into Krav Maga. Turn into kung fu! Like they are selling things that will chop your head in half, with a karate chop.

You know, its become a joke. Let me tell you what the real jiu jitsu is: the real jiu jitsu is the one that doesn’t back away from a challenge. It goes at the obstacle and defends its flag. It’s like, if you want to claim that you have the best fighting style, you should be in the UFC kicking some ass. That’s where the best competition is.

So when people call me, saying “this is the real jiu jitsu,” the next thing they are going to say is “I cannot use it, because I could kill you!” [laughs] You know, that’s what I heard my whole life, from those fake martial artists who claim they were better than everybody else. So believe it my friend, I live my whole life watching this and seeing this. We were always against that, and now suddenly one branch of my family is turning into that! It’s claiming that, but doesn’t go on the proving ground to prove it, does not step into the place where he should actually be representing jiu jitsu, to do it." - Renzo Gracie

Now Rener responded and apologized for any missunderstanding but STILL maintained that it was the real jiu jitsu, yada yada in that he thought that the defensive attacking from guard was the best system...he also said that he did not feel the need to prove the system saying that his camp would win some and Gracie Barra's camp would win some.

What I love about 10th planet is they put their shit on the mat. People may not like eddie...people may not like eddie belting folks no-gi...but they can't argue with the system.

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that is what I'm talking bout raider, and I should also say that I have not met all the Gracies but from what Ive seen in interviews and tv, they all talk about the gracie challenge, but people forget that the gracie challenge is a grappling match and not a real fight where anything is legal. It has rules that almost guarantee them a win. Even in this article, Renzo says that they never back down from a fight, but if it has rules, it is not a fight, it is a match. you know there was another famous martial artists back in the nineties who said that he was the best fighter in the world but he couldnt prove it because it could lead to death and he could essentially be charged with murder.... Steven Seagal. Some say the backlash is that it ruined his career because of the backlash from all the other top guys in martial arts at the time. And if it seems that I'm "hating" on the gracies, its because I think that it is pretty arrogant to claim to be the best in the world at fighting but to prove it, our opponents have to fight our way with our rules. Seems a little self promotional to me. thanks again raider for posting that, and I have to say that renzo, imo, is the most humble of the gracies, and genuinually seems to be trying to expand the gracie system beyond its namesake.

And james, on a sidenote, you'll always be raiderfunk. stay funky lol

That, is the branch of guys (forgive me saying this, but Whorian's people) who I can understand people being wary of. As to the Gracie challenges, they were in fact no rules, hell I saw one fight on tape where a guy (Ralph) bit his opponent's ear off. So when they talk about the old challenges, they were no rules.

Also, is Royce even involved at all with Whorian? Last I heard he has no school and travels around doing the seminar/combatives tours and has no real school anywhere, also heard he and Rorian dont get along. I ask because I was looking for people having encounters where Royce was arrogant. If we are talking ROrian, or people directly connected to him, dont bother posting or we would have a phone book sized record of accounts.

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Originally Posted by stlnl

That, is the branch of guys (forgive me saying this, but Whorian's people) who I can understand people being wary of. As to the Gracie challenges, they were in fact no rules, hell I saw one fight on tape where a guy (Ralph) bit his opponent's ear off. So when they talk about the old challenges, they were no rules.

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well I'm only talking about the graciecombatives.com folks out of torrance. I really like rener's teachings...but in the last 6 months he has been really going the whole "wheel combat stitch -iation" thing and that really messes me up.

I grew up in the east bay. I saw so many people take karate and TKD thinking that they were protecting themselves and I got a lot of friends getting very badly hurt when their thunder kicks don't work. Real fights are 100% unpredictable and mostly unmangeable. I call B.S. on anyone trying to claim that their art can protect you in a real fight. What protects you in a real fight is leaving. Sure..you will be equipped to defend yourself better than not training and yes with fights going to the ground I feel confident I can break an arm if I have to, but walking away or giving up my wallet always beats trying to go Jim Kelly on a fool.

This whole thing is preying on the fearful anyway...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Oww4Ap3YZA


Now please...don't get me wrong...they have an excellent program and it is very well organized. Not talking about the program or quality of instruction one bit. I am talking about marketing and what they say about the "real jiu jitsu". I don't even think they are jerks or anything. I believe that they are very much about selling "gracie jiu jitsu" as a product. Heck, the trademarked it.

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Originally Posted by stlnl

Also, is Royce even involved at all with Whorian? Last I heard he has no school and travels around doing the seminar/combatives tours and has no real school anywhere, also heard he and Rorian dont get along. I ask because I was looking for people having encounters where Royce was arrogant. If we are talking ROrian, or people directly connected to him, dont bother posting or we would have a phone book sized record of accounts.

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Royce actually has a promoted blackbelt sam marcinelli out here in moreno valley and he teaches a class there I believe once a month or so. He is also there for all belt promotions. He is an embassador for BJJ and tours the world. I have heard that he is an absolutely awesome guy. I know when I visited sam's dojo the kids would not stop talking about how awesome he was. Royce has affiliated schools by those he promoted I believe: http://www.roycegracie.tv/royce-grac...su-network.php

I know he affiliate schools, I know a couple of his BB's. I just dont think he has a center school himself, and last I heard, really doesnt deal with Rorian too much.

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Originally Posted by stlnl

I know he affiliate schools, I know a couple of his BB's. I just dont think he has a center school himself, and last I heard, really doesnt deal with Rorian too much.

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no, I don't think he does. I think it is absolutely awesome though that he attends his affiliates belt promotions. Imagine you testing for your blue with Royce freakin' Gracie? I just hope this real jiu jitsu, gi nogi stuff works itself out...there's plenty of money for everyone so lets all support one another.

-I used to train at a Royce Gracie school and recieved my 4th stripe on my white belt from him personally, he isnt there for all the promotions, but when he does come he promotes the students. Which is cool, especially for bragging rights (in the communtiy it obviously doesnt mean much but when you tell your co-workers the look they give you is kinda funny).