Atheist 1 - Christian guy 0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Keeling

All I can say is God is real. I can not tell you the correct path to reach him though... Christianity was manipulated immediately after Jesus' crucifiction. The editorial flames of the Roman empire. Everyone seems to look past the fact that men rewrote most of the scripture and record to establish a way of controlling this "religious uprising". At least that's what I believe. Funny thing is the summerian text seems to verify parts of the bible, or it was the root of it's beginning??? One or the other. Both evil and good exist, there can not be one without the other. But evil will always attempt to control good, and good will always try to weather the attempts. This is just what I believe.

---

So God is real... and its the god from the Christian bible? not the one mentioned in the Koran? the hindu and budists are wrong? all the religions that outdate christianity with 90% off the same story that is copied in most religions are wrong?

I mean no disrespect, I just dont see why people would base their life on what some book says instead of just using their brain and thinking for them selfs.

I dont care what people belive in really as long as they dont bother me with it, in the same way I dont care if people are gay as long as they dont start fucking in front off me since that would upset me no matter if there were two hetrosexual ppl fucking.

I dont belive in any god and I know damn well that killing, raping and stealing is wrong and so do most sane people.

"So God is real... and its the god from the Christian bible? not the one mentioned in the Koran? the hindu and budists are wrong? all the religions that outdate christianity with 90% off the same story that is copied in most religions are wrong?"

Where did I state this? I believe in each to there own. I also believe all of the above are one, as are we. This is what I believe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Blankenship

wheres your proof god exsist. No disrespect man i like you.......its just the fact ive read the bible. i v read the evild deeds god wants of a man. if i had a dog and he dug out my neighbors trash i wouldn't kill him .. thats what god did to man. his own creation didn't please him so he flooded us and wiped us out ... thats wrong morally and you can't deny that my friend. i love all you tenth planet brothers but you need to think logically for a moment. read the bible and think about it.

---

Because if he wasn't real, I wouldn't be here... That or I am the luckiest man on earth! Also you keep referring to the Bible as your reference. I already stated the Bible was twisted and manipulated by man to serve man's wishes to retain control of Christianity. If you seek the truth you will find it. Nothing is given, it is only earned. At least that's my take ;) Love you to man, noew pass me that Bud light!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Korzybski

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren

Sorry to hear that so many of you guys have had bad experiences with christians. It is extremely frustrating and heartbreaking to me that I am represented and subsequently judged based on the perceptions produced by people like the caller in that video. I do not feel that he is an accurate representation of my belief structure or my intellectual capabilities.

The church and the traditional understanding of the christian faith produce a great deal of frustration for me; they are far from perfect. But I can say without hesitation that almost every good decision I have made in my life has been made based on the things I was taught growing up in a christian home. It has been a tremendous source of joy and hope in my life, and although I often have doubts and I am far from perfect, I am extremely happy to be struggling through my intellectual journey. I wish everyone could have the experience I have had as a christian, and I wish everyone could be as happy and as blessed as I am.

I hope that one day through your dealings with me, you guys can at the very least come to believe that not every christian is a blathering idiot who can't defend his positions with intelligence or logic, despite the fact that you may disagree with the stated positions.

And I wish good things for all of you :)

---

Thank God! I thought I was all alone in here!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonathan Wylie

Catholics are Christians? <serious question!

---

technically yes. However, they have quite an addendum to the bible with rules that are not necessarily scriptural. The Bible does not have a purgatory for instance. So you get a lot of fundamentalist christians who say catholics are not cristians. I guess I am Evangelical in that I believe that the Bible is literal. I don't argue over religion because it is a matter of faith. If you could prove a spiritual belief then faith would not be required. I just try to answer the questions I can and correct misleading statements.

Like BJJ blackbelts that say they have an easy counter for the high or rubber guard and then have some noob doing ghetto rubberguard to "prove" the technique is legit...

I find modern christianity the same way. Many people speak on it and then find some psychotic zealot screaming around and go to talk to them. Christianity has taken some pretty big hits lately...thanks to fundamentalist politicians that don't even go to church. You think Rush Limbaugh goes to church? well he doesn't...but he can get the supposed religious right fired up. Screaming that everyone is going to hell and God hates this and that.....not one bit of christ in them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Keeling

Because if he wasn't real, I wouldn't be here... That or I am the luckiest man on earth! Also you keep referring to the Bible as your reference. I already stated the Bible was twisted and manipulated by man to serve man's wishes to retain control of Christianity. If you seek the truth you will find it. Nothing is given, it is only earned. At least that's my take ;) Love you to man, noew pass me that Bud light!

---

If you look up at the night's sky, on any given night, you will see 5 or 6 stars EXPLODE! THAT is one rare goddam event. Out of the billions and trillions of stars in the universe, only roughly 5 or 6 explode every night, but they do in fact explode every single night. It happens all the time. The universe is unimaginably large, possibly infinite, and rare things happen every single day. It doesn't have anything to do with luck, it's just that there are so many goddam stars, and stars only live for so long, that you WILL see them supernova.

Think about procreation for a second (I don't mean to be disgusting, but this is the best way I can think of to illustrate this point accurately). How many times have you killed sperm cells in your lifetime? There are millions of sperm in 1 load, and even if that goes into a female, that does not guarantee pregnancy, far from it in fact. Despite all the odds, 1 sperm cell meets with 1 egg cell every single day to create a human being, and it happens all the time, every single day, thousands of times a day. Based on the odds, you shouldn't be here, I shouldn't be here, life on this planet should never have happened. But it did. That was no miracle, no divine intervention was required. There's just so many goddam solar systems and planets and stars and people on this planet and people having sex and sperm cells in 1 load etc. that life is inevitable. Life happens all the time. It's incredibly rare, but that doesn't mean that it's special or it was meant to be, that just means that it was going to happen based on the odds, and it probably happened elsewhere in this universe (yes, i'm implying that aliens exist).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Keeling

Because if he wasn't real, I wouldn't be here...

---

So if he's real, then who's his god?

big bang, creation, or any other way you believe, you are always going to leave yourself open for an infinite paradox. simply because you can always ask the question "well what made that?" if you believe to comets collided, what made the comets, big bang, what made the thing that exploded, creationism, who made God? but nevertheless.. something HAD to be created at the beginning, it was either created by intelligence, or by nothing at all. So to say it sounds "ignorant" for someone to say "God has been here forever, and was the one who created time as we know it", isnt that far fetched when you compare it to any other belief. For instance that a rock or any other object has been here for eternity without ever coming into existence at any given point. To me, either something had to create time as we know it, or else there an infinite paradox is inevitable. Because if time has been here forever, how did we ever reach today. There HAD to be a starting point to time. because today, minus any amount of time, wont give us the beginning of eternity. And im not saying this as a point for christianity, Im saying this as a way to show no matter what you believe, nobody is going to have ALL the answers. Science will either have "we dont know because we havent proven it yet and therefor we arent going to jump to conclusions", or religion will have "We dont know because it's above our way of thinking and only God can answer that question" so why argue over wanting proof on either side when none of us are going to be able to do it when it comes to our own beliefs? seems hypocritical. I think we should all just focus on the fact that we are all human, we're all here on earth at the moment, and we have a very short time here to do as much as we can to learn, help people, and progress as a whole. Whatever your beliefs are, hold to them and if someone wants to talk to you about them, or they are curious, feel free to have the conversation. but no need to go out of our way to try and prove to someone how they are wrong or explain to them how you know you're right. Just focus on things that arent going to lead to wars and division. Like jiujitsu :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pete Daly

If you look up at the night's sky, on any given night, you will see 5 or 6 stars EXPLODE! THAT is one rare goddam event. Out of the billions and trillions of stars in the universe, only roughly 5 or 6 explode every night, but they do in fact explode every single night. It happens all the time. The universe is unimaginably large, possibly infinite, and rare things happen every single day. It doesn't have anything to do with luck, it's just that there are so many goddam stars, and stars only live for so long, that you WILL see them supernova.

Think about procreation for a second (I don't mean to be disgusting, but this is the best way I can think of to illustrate this point accurately). How many times have you killed sperm cells in your lifetime? There are millions of sperm in 1 load, and even if that goes into a female, that does not guarantee pregnancy, far from it in fact. Despite all the odds, 1 sperm cell meets with 1 egg cell every single day to create a human being, and it happens all the time, every single day, thousands of times a day. Based on the odds, you shouldn't be here, I shouldn't be here, life on this planet should never have happened. But it did. That was no miracle, no divine intervention was required. There's just so many goddam solar systems and planets and stars and people on this planet and people having sex and sperm cells in 1 load etc. that life is inevitable. Life happens all the time. It's incredibly rare, but that doesn't mean that it's special or it was meant to be, that just means that it was going to happen based on the odds, and it probably happened elsewhere in this universe (yes, i'm implying that aliens exist).

---

Because it is statistically impossible to have lived through the shit that I have. I have been shot, stabbed, jumped by a gang of 17 men (armed) Trapped in an airtight toolbox in the middle of summer in Houston, TX. Been in more (american street) fights than anyone I know of. Trapped in a waterfall when I was 9, trapped long enough that dozens of people where searching the river for me!
Brother I can go on and on. I was shot in the head at point blank range... God entered my life at a young age, and has been beside me every since. I do not agree with organized religion, because I believe they became corrupted long ago... according to your take I should be a multiple Lotto winner with my luck, if that's all it is...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

So if he's real, then who's his god?

---

Well I believe that man's demons reside inside, I would have to say that God does as well. He is we, we are he. In otherwords we are a part of him, as he is the whole of us. And hey, I'm just a man. Nobody says I know all. Just my opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. and some stink more than others ;) If you strive to do what's right he will test you, if you skate through life not trying. Where is the need to test? As you have already failed... I have related every decision in my life to "is it right or wrong" and have always let that be my guide through life! I hope that more see things as I do, but that is up to them. It is my whole hearted belief, that we are here as a lifelong test, to evolve and become more like God. The problem is all the temptations and distractions that life hits us with. Has slowed our evolution to a crawl for thousands of years...

Huh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

Huh?

---

+1

Religious threads are a dangerous thing.

.....

I personally am not religious, I believe in science. But to me its not so hard to believe that there may be a higher presence that Science has yet found the math to detect?

From my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, every culture in the world as far back as we can find has had some sort of afterlife belief system. Perhaps we use this as a safety mechanism to help our brain cope with death, or perhaps it's something more.

I think the problem arises when you start using morality as a way to enforce a belief system. Times change and cultures differ. Whats right for me and you is heinous to someone else.

It's in human nature to want to fit in and to discourage difference at the same time. Many religions use this all the time to gain grounds.

I just think that the "near death" experience that has been witnessed via hallucinogenic rituals and/or actual near death experiences has given people anecdotal evidence to believe in the after life. Now we know that those experience's are not actually death but "near death". Back then people just thought you were dead.

I remember science being able to prove our souls exist. I can't remember the study though. If your soul is "you" and is comprised of 100% energy, than we never die according to Newtons Law. We will just change form or transfer our energy... This collective of our energy/souls would be what I call God. Now don't get me wrong, science has not proven what happens to the soul after death, just that it leaves the body. The rest is an off the top of my head conclusion.

AJ, there are some horror stories from "back in the day". Too many documented burials, where peeps where buried alive. The whole reason for wakes etc...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Keeling

I remember science being able to prove our souls exist. I can't remember the study though. If your soul is "you" and is comprised of 100% energy, than we never die according to Newtons Law. We will just change form or transfer our energy... This collective of our energy/souls would be what I call God. Now don't get me wrong, science has not proven what happens to the soul after death, just that it leaves the body. The rest is an off the top of my head conclusion.

---

I don't know, it could all operate similar to a battery powered flash drive. Your consciousness could be a fully fleshed out entity but then when the power goes out, the grid fails, and the data just gets lost. I mean what kind of energy is it that we are talking about? Is the energy in your brain just the element which turns neuron receptors on or off and your identity is just an expression of the current on/off states of those receptors?

In terms of brain injury due to unconsciousness, the power was off long enough to corrupt the data, essentially changing your consciousness forever. Permanent brain injury was always a detail that challenged any notion I had of what constitutes the identity of one's consciousness or soul.

For a delicate subject like religion I'm pretty impressed by the way everybody reacting :) gotta love a bunch of people able to discuss a topic without trying to fight each other on the interweb!
I'm in love with this forum! :) we all got our opinions but we still all get along :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

I don't know, it could all operate similar to a battery powered flash drive. Your consciousness could be a fully fleshed out entity but then when the power goes out, the grid fails, and the data just gets lost. I mean what kind of energy is it that we are talking about? Is the energy in your brain just the element which turns neuron receptors on or off and your identity is just an expression of the current on/off states of those receptors?

In terms of brain injury due to unconsciousness, the power was off long enough to corrupt the data, essentially changing your consciousness forever. Permanent brain injury was always a detail that challenged any notion I had of what constitutes the identity of one's consciousness or soul.

---

Im glad you mentioned this. I mean say I had some kind of brain damage or memory loss. wouldn't that completely change who i am? Personality and everything would be different. Like you said my data would be deleted and once again haven to be wrote starting from scratch. life is fucked up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Blankenship

Im glad you mentioned this. I mean say I had some kind of brain damage or memory loss. wouldn't that completely change who i am? Personality and everything would be different. Like you said my data would be deleted and once again haven to be wrote starting from scratch. life is fucked up.

---

Definitely some scary stuff. My nephew had some serious brain trauma and the family still doesn't know what sort of personality has unfolded since it takes time to see how these things will flesh out. He seems okay, but another friend of mine came out of a coma with short term memory loss, mood swings, and the inability to know when something was inappropriate to say. Totally happier dude overall, but not the same guy.

Even as an atheist I still held out belief that there had to be an afterlife just off of the tenuous presumption that the nature of all memories is in hindsight, which implies that in the future that there would have to be some storage medium for all of that data. As if your "soul" existed in a cloud server connecting with your consciousness and body on earth.

It was a silly rationalization though, since clearly my computer can operate without a cloud server and just because I can access information now doesn't mean that it won't crash tomorrow, losing all of my data.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

Definitely some scary stuff. My nephew had some serious brain trauma and the family still doesn't know what sort of personality has unfolded since it takes time to see how these things will flesh out. He seems okay, but another friend of mine came out of a coma with short term memory loss, mood swings, and the inability to know when something was inappropriate to say. Totally happier dude overall, but not the same guy.

Even as an atheist I still held out belief that there had to be an afterlife just off of the tenuous presumption that the nature of all memories is in hindsight, which implies that in the future that there would have to be some storage medium for all of that data. As if your "soul" existed in a cloud server connecting with your consciousness and body on earth.

It was a silly rationalization though, since clearly my computer can operate without a cloud server and just because I can access information now doesn't mean that it won't crash tomorrow, losing all of my data.

---

Yeah I've just accepted the fact that there is no afterlife. I mean if you really think about it once we are dead we there will be no knowing of our exsistence or anything that has ever happened. It will be like before we were born. Nothingness. Makes life seem important and having birthdays a nuisance lol. I'm not sold out to the supernatural happenings that people claim. People are superstitious.

Speaking in terms of logic, it is equaly illogical to be an Atheist as it is to be a person of any faith. Both beliefs have an equal amount of evidence backing them. There is just as much evidence that god exists as there is that god doesn't exist. The only logical decision at that point is to be Agnostic and admit to yourself that the truth value of certain claims, especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims are unknowable.

Argument for existance of god = Argument against the existance of god

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

Both beliefs have an equal amount of evidence backing them. There is just as much evidence that god exists as there is that god doesn't exist.

---

This isn't even true. There is no evidence that god exists. You can say there isn't any evidence that he does not exist, but that would be redundant. There is no evidence that there is no gremlin living at the center of the earth that steals one sock from the washing machine, and leaves you with an odd number. You cannot disprove me if I said that this gremlin does exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

Speaking in terms of logic, it is equaly illogical to be an Atheist as it is to be a person of any faith. Both beliefs have an equal amount of evidence backing them. There is just as much evidence that god exists as there is that god doesn't exist. The only logical decision at that point is to be Agnostic and admit to yourself that the truth value of certain claims, especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims are unknowable.

Argument for existance of god = Argument against the existance of god

---

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. I don't have an argument or belief that a god doesn't exist. I just lack the belief of a God. Just as you have no reason to believe in the Aztec God Xiuhcoatl (or you could, I am presuming here), I too have no need to believe in any God.

Would I label you as a "Anti-Xiuhcoatl-ist"? No, your just a dude who never bothered to know or care about Xiuhcoatl just like I'm just a guy who critically questions the ideas presented to him and finds fault in all theistic beliefs. Atheism is the default position, It takes teaching and raising to become a theist.

To sum it up. The lack of any belief is not a belief in of itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

Speaking in terms of logic, it is equaly illogical to be an Atheist as it is to be a person of any faith. Both beliefs have an equal amount of evidence backing them. There is just as much evidence that god exists as there is that god doesn't exist. The only logical decision at that point is to be Agnostic and admit to yourself that the truth value of certain claims, especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims are unknowable.

Argument for existance of god = Argument against the existance of god

---

What evidence of god existing? There is no such evidence!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pete Daly

This isn't even true. There is no evidence that god exists. You can say there isn't any evidence that he does not exist, but that would be redundant. There is no evidence that there is no gremlin living at the center of the earth that steals one sock from the washing machine, and leaves you with an odd number. You cannot disprove me if I said that this gremlin does exist.

---

It's redundent but true, there is no evidence for or against god. As for the gremlin he could be disproven or proven using a scientific method, the reason you have to come to an Agnostic conclusion when it comes to God is there is no scientific method to be used in the exploration of god to gain evidence leaving you with no evidence either way. A lack of evidence is only evidence when using a scientific method and that lack of evidence is never conclusive proof it's only proof with a verying degree of probability or likelihood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge

What evidence of god existing? There is no such evidence!

---

When did I say there was?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

The lack of any belief is not a belief in of itself.

---

Do you believe this is correct?

;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. I don't have an argument or belief that a god doesn't exist. I just lack the belief of a God. Just as you have no reason to believe in the Aztec God Xiuhcoatl (or you could, I am presuming here), I too have no need to believe in any God.

Would I label you as a "Anti-Xiuhcoatl-ist"? No, your just a dude who never bothered to know or care about Xiuhcoatl just like I'm just a guy who critically questions the ideas presented to him and finds fault in all theistic beliefs. Atheism is the default position, It takes teaching and raising to become a theist.

To sum it up. The lack of any belief is not a belief in of itself.

---

Atheism as defined by websters
n.
1.Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2.The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

Atheism is ones personal belief that there is no creator or god in saying "I'm an Athiest", you are taking the God doesn't exist belief as your own. That isn't a default position, its is the faith that there is no creator or god. A belief in nothing is still a belief. The default option would be Agnosticism and just accepting and admitting that its not a knowledge that we as humans have an ability to obtain (yet, if ever).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack LaBarge

What evidence of god existing? There is no such evidence!

---

Creation itself is evidence of some sort of designer to me. (notice i said to me, it wont be to everyone) I dont think that particles have just been floating through space for an eternity. I believe time started somewhere. And whether you believe in the big bang, creation, or whatever else, It HAD to start somewhere. There had to be a beginning to the universe. So you could either believe 1 impossibility or the other. God has been around forever and created time and everything we see, or everything we see has been around forever in some form or another.. either way, it calls for an scientific impossibility. nothing can exist without a beginning. Thats why i think its stupid to argue about religion vs science.. it all calls for "impossibilities". So you could say that according to science, neither makes sense. Which would be true. But for some reason as christians when we admittedly admit the fact that we believe in certain scientific impossibilities, we are looked at as idiots. When in reality, we all do it in some form or another. But how about this.. Since we are all having this conversation.. I feel like its an opportunity for me to learn. So I have some questions for whoever they might pertain to. And in no way am i asking any of these because i'm trying to prove a point.. i literally am just asking because I love learning the way others think and like to keep an open mind to help me understand the world better. So..

1. When it comes to evolution.. for the ones who believe we started from wither a plasma or single cell of some sort. If over millions or billions of years we developed into where we are now, how did it all evolve in a way that allowed for our organs to be useful before they were arranged the way they are now.. for instance, it would be pointless for me to have eyes without nerves leading to my brain, or for me to have a butthole without intestines. So how did the evolutionary process allow for these things to develope one without the other? what would have been the point of having a heart without blood vessels? I hope this makes sense the way im wording it. For instance, Its not like our DNA was smart enough to plan evolution ahead and say "in 10 million years i want to be able to see, so i think ill start working on that now my gradually evolving the nerves and brain that will be required to use the eyes that will come around that time". And again, dont take this as a personal attack on the theory, I obviously am aware that there is an actual scientific theory to how it happened, and thats the answer im looking for. From someone who knows enough to respond in a way that makes sense and so i will be better able to understand your views.

2. For Christians, (and i have my own personal opinion on this but i would like to hear others views because i know mine isnt the only one) But how would you say it is possible that God (and im talking about the christian God of the Bible in this instance), Was able to create Satan with the ability to sin if there was no sin in God?

3. For the ones who believe we evolved from monkeys (if that is still even a theory, im not positive), How do you believe it was that monkeys remained, and humans remained, but all of the links between died off? why is there no 1/2 monkey 1/2 man, or any other percentage of man/monkey mix any longer?

4. For atheists- I know in the Christian community it's believed that God "Wrote the law upon our hearts". in other words, universally we know right from wrong. We dont have to be taught that killing is bad for no reason. We know within ourselves that its wrong because of our "conscience". We feel bad when we do certain things. Whats the atheistic view on why this happens? Why do we have a conscience about certain things that would seem ultimately beneficial in the animal kingdom. For instance cheating on a spouse seems to be instilled in us. Whereas when you look at it from an animalistic stand point it would only be better for the reproduction cycle. So where do you believe this natural awareness of good/evil comes from?

Again, i hope nobody takes these questions personally or in the wrong way.. I would love to get a good response to all of them. Maybe it would help us all understand each other a little. And also, I'd agree.. compared to most forums.. people on here have responded to the religious one pretty mature/respectfully for the most part. also.. Woot 10th planet!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

It's redundent but true, there is no evidence for or against god.

---

I'm saying that there needs to be evidence to justify a claim. That claim being: god exists. Make the claim, back it with evidence. That is how something is determined whether or not to be true. In this case, there is no evidence to back the claim, therefor it is logical that we determine the claim untrue.

The reason the default is atheism is because theism must be taught, it must be learned. You apply new information to a person who previously had no information on the subject. If someone had never heard of the concept of a god, then you would need to explain theism to that person, whereas there would be nothing to explain in terms of atheism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

As for the gremlin he could be disproven or proven using a scientific method

---

And if i said that the gremlin is not subject to the scientific method, then what?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

A lack of evidence is only evidence when using a scientific method and that lack of evidence is never conclusive proof it's only proof with a verying degree of probability or likelihood.

---

Throughout history, humans have attempted to prove of his existence. All attempts have failed, but that does not mean he does not exist, so is it fair to say that there probably is no god?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chronic_jiujitsu

4. For atheists- I know in the Christian community it's believed that God "Wrote the law upon our hearts". in other words, universally we know right from wrong. We dont have to be taught that killing is bad for no reason. We know within ourselves that its wrong because of our "conscience". We feel bad when we do certain things. Whats the atheistic view on why this happens? Why do we have a conscience about certain things that would seem ultimately beneficial in the animal kingdom. For instance cheating on a spouse seems to be instilled in us. Whereas when you look at it from an animalistic stand point it would only be better for the reproduction cycle. So where do you believe this natural awareness of good/evil comes from?

---

If I may speak for the entirety of my ilk, atheistic view is generally answered through evolution. We are not the most adept species in the world in terms of survival of the fittest, but we are incredibly intelligent, comparatively speaking. Those who worked together within their species survived, and those who did not were on their own, and were killed and did not reproduce.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

Atheism as defined by websters
n.
1.Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2.The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

Atheism is ones personal belief that there is no creator or god in saying "I'm an Athiest", you are taking the God doesn't exist belief as your own. That isn't a default position, its is the faith that there is no creator or god. A belief in nothing is still a belief. The default option would be Agnosticism and just accepting and admitting that its not a knowledge that we as humans have an ability to obtain (yet, if ever).

---

"Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4][5] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[5][6]" - Wikipedia

I am the atheist and I am explaining to you the parameters that I and other atheist's use to define the term. If you want to stick with the notion that it's a belief, your are more than welcome to, but know that you are not discussing any idea related to me and more importantly most people that would define themselves as atheists.

I am not forcing a definition down your throat but am just simply explaining that your definition of the term does not apply to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren

Do you believe this is correct?

;)

---

I understand, to the best of my knowable knowledge, that it is indeed correct.

Quote:

---

1. When it comes to evolution.. for the ones who believe we started from wither a plasma or single cell of some sort. If over millions or billions of years we developed into where we are now, how did it all evolve in a way that allowed for our organs to be useful before they were arranged the way they are now.. for instance, it would be pointless for me to have eyes without nerves leading to my brain, or for me to have a butthole without intestines. So how did the evolutionary process allow for these things to develope one without the other? what would have been the point of having a heart without blood vessels? I hope this makes sense the way im wording it. For instance, Its not like our DNA was smart enough to plan evolution ahead and say "in 10 million years i want to be able to see, so i think ill start working on that now my gradually evolving the nerves and brain that will be required to use the eyes that will come around that time". And again, dont take this as a personal attack on the theory, I obviously am aware that there is an actual scientific theory to how it happened, and thats the answer im looking for. From someone who knows enough to respond in a way that makes sense and so i will be better able to understand your views.

---

The way evolution is said to work is that many very small changes occure over a very very long span of time one change building apon the other. So if we start as single cells and start to evolve over great lenghts of time we eventully become (possibly) lets say a worm. Now a worm has organs but they are far less developed then say a fishes which would be another step in the evolution of a creature. So human organs didn't develope in the way you're picturing it, one with out the other, we didn't have usless organs developing over time independently,(that means we never had intestines and no butt hole or vise versa) our same organs we've had since worms have just become more developed and complex over time as we went from cell to fish to lizard to mammel to man.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

"Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4][5] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[5][6]" - Wikipedia

I am the atheist and I am explaining to you the parameters that I and other atheist's use to define the term. If you want to stick with the notion that it's a belief, your are more than welcome to, but know that you are not discussing any idea related to me and more importantly most people that would define themselves as atheists.

I am not forcing a definition down your throat but am just simply explaining that your definition of the term does not apply to me.

---

Its cool, our tems were just getting crossed, we just needed to define some perameters for our premises.
I was just trying to say that a belief is defined as what one holds true for ones self, and if you say that "there is no god" then you have a belief that there is no god, based on the peramiters set for the word belief.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pete Daly

If I may speak for the entirety of my ilk, atheistic view is generally answered through evolution. We are not the most adept species in the world in terms of survival of the fittest, but we are incredibly intelligent, comparatively speaking. Those who worked together within their species survived, and those who did not were on their own, and were killed and did not reproduce.

---

Ok, so i THINK i understand what you are saying. but let me make sure. What you are suggesting is that the reason we dont do certain "immoral" things. (I'll just use the example of cheating in this scenario), is because we have learned the benefits of working together. And by not betraying each other or the person we have chose to be with, it will ultimately lead to more of a unison and cooperation of the species overall. Therefor leading to, for lack of a better terminology, "power in numbers" because we are all working together. So in a sense, we are looking out for others best interest, because it would ultimately be better for us also (seeing as though that means we would work together) is that correct?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

I understand, to the best of my knowable knowledge, that it is indeed correct.

---

Hmmm... interesting...

Understanding based on your "knowable knowledge" implies one of 2 things:

1. You have a complete and thorough understanding of a subject, with no room for further acquirement of knowledge

OR

2. You believe in a thing which you do not fully understand but feel compelled towards based upon what you do in fact believe yourself to understand about the subject.

Option 1 is perfection and complete knowledge. I don't think any of us are so haughty as to lay claim to complete knowledge of any subject.

Option 2 is faith in the stated subject. Call it what you want if you find the term faith to be offensive, but it appears you believe in a thing you can not fully grasp or explain.

Just some food for thought :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

The way evolution is said to work is that many very small changes occure over a very very long span of time one change building apon the other. So if we start as single cells and start to evolve over great lenghts of time we eventully become (possibly) lets say a worm. Now a worm has organs but they are far less developed then say a fishes which would be another step in the evolution of a creature. So human organs didn't develope in the way you're picturing it, one with out the other, we didn't have usless organs developing over time independently,(that means we never had intestines and no butt hole or vise versa) our same organs we've had since worms have just become more developed and complex over time as we went from cell to fish to lizard to mammel to man.

---

That part i understand. its the little changes that confuse me. for instance.. to get from a worm to whatever comes next, would require multiple changes. None of which would occur overnight. they are all a lengthy process. For instance some believe we started in a pond or body of water, and eventually developed lungs. So lets say to get from a water occupying creature, to becoming something that could take in oxygen from the air, we would need to develope some sort of organ or body part that we didnt have before. bust that obviously wouldnt happen overnight. Or in one generation. so how would this DNA "plan ahead" if you will. Or start this organ needed for air intake generations before it was complete? i hope that makes sense. Because to me, even "small" changes would take at minimum a few generations to evolve. So what would be the evolutionary benefit of the generation in between. before its actually fully functioning? it seems like there would be a lot of half developed parts between the original specimen and the one that had the fully operational (insert whatever the next part to develope was here). do you understand what im saying? Maybe its not coming out right.. if not, ill try to think about it and re-write it sometime lol

Quote:

---

4. For atheists- I know in the Christian community it's believed that God "Wrote the law upon our hearts". in other words, universally we know right from wrong. We dont have to be taught that killing is bad for no reason. We know within ourselves that its wrong because of our "conscience". We feel bad when we do certain things. Whats the atheistic view on why this happens? Why do we have a conscience about certain things that would seem ultimately beneficial in the animal kingdom. For instance cheating on a spouse seems to be instilled in us. Whereas when you look at it from an animalistic stand point it would only be better for the reproduction cycle. So where do you believe this natural awareness of good/evil comes from?

---

It has to do with DNA and brain chemistry. We evolved as a group and in a group effort we survived. Just like wolves or many apes this affected our evolution. We had to evolve in a way condusive to the group because the group was necessary to the individuals survival. When a mother hears her baby crying at night a chemical is released in the brain telling that mother how special and beautiful and wonderful that child is. That chemical is what keeps animals from killing and eating there annoying and screaming child. Those same chemicals affect our moral compass and gives us what appears to be a conscience.