Don't some of the chute boxe kicks come from tkd Shogun was a fucking whirlwind in the grand prix. The beauty of mma is its still a growing sport as it evolves man who knows what goodies we are instore for.
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Don't some of the chute boxe kicks come from tkd Shogun was a fucking whirlwind in the grand prix. The beauty of mma is its still a growing sport as it evolves man who knows what goodies we are instore for.
Zoila Frausto started in TKD. She is the girl that just beat Megumi Fujii.
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=G4VROPRE
The Tae Kwon Joe stuff has impressed me. Thats some mean power.
I had an old girlfriend from KC that fought on the US TKD Olympic team in Korea, she could go..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Mallory
Yer a few of them did the Olympic style but to my knowledge Anderson Silva, Dan hardy and Stephan Bonnar all did ITF style which is the original, the arts of ITF and WTF are like comparing Wing Chun to Karate completely different arts
I agree, ITF and WTF style TKD are different. I don't know if they did ITF or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Joe has got some pop on his kicks !Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Elliott
what is ITF and WTF style of TKD? because if WTF stands for what the fuck TeaKwondo i am a master at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Mallory
Nice bit of comedy there ;) ITF is the International Taekwondo Federation while the WTF is the World Taekwondo Federation. ITF is the older organization and is based in communist North Korea while the WTF is the World Taekwondo Federation and is based in South Korea. I don't know all of the political history behind it all but the WTF is the organization that regulates Olympic TKD.Quote:
Originally Posted by sly
I started TKD with Master B.C. Yu who is one of the highest ranking ITF black belts in North America. I was one test away from receiving my black belt when Han Won Lee, who won a bronze medal at the '88 Olympics for the U.S. at bantamweight opened a school in my hometown of Ann Arbor, MI.
From my personal experience ITF was more traditional and self defense oriented while WTF was more progressive and competition oriented. We learned how to punch and kick according to the old ITF way but we didn't learn footwork, distance control, counter kicking, angles, timing etc... on top of that, the way kicks are done in WTF at a high level are different from the way they are done in ITF. I always say that I started training TKD when I was 13 years old but I didn't learn how to fight until I met Han.
Could you describe the Switch step they use with a rear leg round kick? I have been around a bunch of guys who have trained both more dutch style kickboxing and traditional Thai trained and I have never seen this.Quote:
Originally Posted by frank-theman-james
Think Frank is talking about stepping in, with the front foot, to deliver the kick off the rear leg regarding the telegraphing. Said switch by mistake maybe??Quote:
Originally Posted by stlnl
International Tae-Kwon-Do Federation and World Tae-Kwon-Do Federation. WTF is the style at the olympics.
wtf focus on their "olympic sport" of taekwondo etc they'll teach you how to play tiggy with your feet, while itf would teach you what id consider a more realistic self defence system. im pretty sure that some masters under itf would laugh at the wtf syllabus, in other words, they are two very different systems.
Im guessing Frank means the step in on the rear kick, rather than a switch, otherwise it doesnt make any sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlnl
this isnt a bad explanation of the differences:
http://www.succeedinmartialarts.com/...-itf-taekwondo
if you want to be in the olympics then pick wtf but if you want to learn a system that incorporates striking to the head and kicking below belt level then learn itf. it sounds like the only reason this guy picked wtf over itf is because of its affiliation with the olympics which seems to be what wins over most of its martial artists. i say screw it. i want to learn how to fight. not get into some glorified commercialised event.
That article was ok. You could tell he was biased towards ITF. Both ITF and WTF have to be modified for MMA competition or street self defense. From my experience with both and competing at a national level in WTF, I would say that WTF does a better job of teaching principles of fighting such as distance control, footwork, timing, counter kicking etc... these can then be modified for MMA competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by FiErCe_oNi
These comments in the article illustrated this:
"Here is what I found out quickly. WTF practitioners can cover several meters in a split second, in any direction. My kicks were too short, imagine that… I’m 6’3”, and I didn’t have the footwork or training to move across the mat fast enough to ever hit my opponent."
"If you think about it, the ring in an official WTF match is 12 meters square. That is nearly 40 feet wide, and that ring does get used. Here I am, a highly successful point style fighter, winning first place in practically every tournament I competed in. Then, at nationals, in San Jose, California, I’m knocked out with a swift roundhouse kick to the ribs."
The WTF style advanced and improved while the ITF style remained more or less the same back in the late 80's and early 90's when I competed. Today, ITF competition has improved and they allow punching to the face and have eliminated the point fighting aspect so that there is more continuous action but the competitors still lack some fundamental skills. Not to say that there aren't some tough guys who compete ITF and the will to win sometimes is more important than technique.
Of course the major flaws in WTF competition is the lack of punching to the face and kicking the legs. When you add punching to the face and leg kicks it changes some of the dynamics of a fight but the overall principles of footwork, distance control, feinting etc... remain the same.
Here are two HL vids that show the difference between ITF & WTF. The first one is with Hyon Lee who I trained with at the Olympic Training Center before the U.S. team trials in 1990. The second is a compilation of ITF Championships. You will notice that the WTF fighters are smoother, have better economy of motion and are more relaxed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lfr-kB-33U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QW24exWulo
the most obvious difference i find is that the itf guys are trying to deal damage with their strikes while the wtf guys aim to just make contact, you'll never see them try to move through their opponent or aim for a perpendicular angle with a strike and thats why most of their attacks are shrugged off and answered by counterattacks. on the other hand, the itf style looks similar to other contact sports such as kickboxing while it follows different concepts. for this reason, i think that itf tkd is more easily transferable to mma then wtf tkd.
It may look that way to the eye but trust me, the WTF style kicks have power. I've seem arms broken from trying to block roundhouse kicks and plenty of knock outs in competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by FiErCe_oNi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0dk_gJPcpo
i believe that the instances where wtf practitioners do deal damage with their strikes is when they dont use "wtf style" kicks and use more powerful traditional kicking technique instead. they've said it themselves, the kicks developed for wtf competition are designed for speed and not for power. i've never seen anyone get more then a slight daze or fall over onto their asse due to their balance being disrupted from a wtf style kick. maybe they have broken arms but that may have more to do with the victim not conditioning their arms to recieve that kind of impact. i cant imagine a forearm being broken by something like a double roundhouse kick but if it really is that powerful then i'd like to see it happen.
I did both ITF and WTF. I was humble enough to listen to my coach and changed the way that I kicked and it made a huge difference. I personally broke a kids arm with a 'WTF' style kick. There are slight differences in the way that WTF guys throw their back kicks, spinning hook kicks, spinning roundhouse aka nada bong etc ...Quote:
Originally Posted by FiErCe_oNi
The most important thing in generating power is speed. The formula from physics is F=1/2M x V2 ( force is one half the mass times the velocity squared).
The hardest I have ever been kicked in my life was at the 1990 U.S. team trials from a double kick by Clay Barber (U.S. team member). It's all about landing the kick with the right timing, distance, balance...
Very true WTF is all about competitive training whereas ITF is a traditional rooted form. However I believe both have equal merits in a straight competition as ITF also allows puncing to the head which, I believe creates a better flow in the spar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Mallory
Punching to the face and leg kicks def. change the dynamic of striking on the feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Well in that case, that is how the kick is taught, and how just about every single Thai/dutch kickboxer throws it. THe SIZE of the step of course and relative "wind up" is relative to the situation. But all of them take a step of a sort to get that kick rolling. But From what I have seen, is timing is the crucial component with hitting a person, that, or initiating contact with punches and following with a kick when you get the response you were looking for (ie the fellow backs away from or covers up from, the punches).Quote:
Originally Posted by G Rae
Thats really not true. Its a bit of a gross generalisation. Your right though, it does depend on the size of the step I guess. I would like to discuss all this more when Im a bit more coherent (just had op). Hopefully we can make the kind of information sharing that goes on with the grappling happen for striking, then we can give something back.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlnl
I asked G Rae to post on this thread. Hes my trainer (I didnt notice his posts above mine).
http://i55.tinypic.com/2wmo22g.gif
Is this the step in your talking about?
That IMO is a pretty big step, but the movement of the foot to open the hips, small or large is always there with the rear leg round kick IME.
As for it not being true regarding the kick, I have also seen a rotation to start the kick, but that isnt the way the kick is generally trained, but it is a variation. Not a gross generalization I think, unless you can show me vid of a guy NOT pointing his toes in the direction of his kick before bringing his leg around.
By rotation I meant being on the ball of the foot then rotating the heel towards the target to open the hips and bringing the kick behind. However, this isnt as powerful, and its only a variation, not the preferred method to inflict damage, IME.
Its is a way, but it isnt the only way. You can produce a devastating rear kick from a Thai stance without rotating the front/grounded foot at all. The front foot stays planted, pointing straight ahead. Theres no step at all. I could show you video, but Im only on USB stick internet at present. Will put some up later in the week.
G and I are both invalids at present, but when I can hold pads for him again, we will put together some technique videos.
It will still be less powerful than rotating the foot, unless you are going to show me something really, really revolutionary I have somehow managed to miss the past 13 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Elliott
But to add to the above, I have seen several ways to kick without moving the foot. What I have NOT seen, is anyone teaching it very often, or using it at a competitive level other than a "feeling" out kick. Anytime they want to do damage, I see a step, and a rotation (of sorts some of the euros, esp the big guys tend to rotate the foot fully and plant it flat on the step) of some sort, pretty much every, single, time.
What about Thai fighters? What do you see them doing?
Chai has a clip........on this very thread.....doing exactly what I was talking about.......
I see them throw it with no rotation only to feel out the other guy/slide that shin under the elbow. but even them, when they want to throw a fast kick, they rotate, just dont take the step first.
But lets say Buakaw.....I dont ever see him not step/point toes in the direction of a kick/rotate on his foot. I guess he could do it without these things, but its so rare, I dont really catch it.
Its a bit confusing to just talk about the rotating foot. There is a video of a guy with pretty slick Muay Thai spinning right round on the kicks while doing shadow. What Im saying is that in Muay Thai that kick is the exception not the rule.
The main Muay Thai kick I see used in the Muay Thai I have watched, and the Muay Thai I have been taught does not involve a full rotation of the body on a miss. If you miss a kick, or your doing shadow, the kick comes up, turns in and then comes back down to where you started. Thats the whole point of the kick. You dont have to leave your stance, so you can throw it in combinations, not just tag it on the end.
The kick involves throwing your leg straight up like your kicking a ball, and rolling your hip to turn the leg in at the point you want to strike. Ideally the foot stays fixed and you come up on your toes. If your inflexible, your foot will have to turn a bit as you kick higher. The kick comes up the side of your opponents body, and strikes at an angle. Some fighters step in a little with it, and some turn the foot a little, but the key thing is your not rolloing your hip right over, or spinning all the way around on a miss, and most importantly, your not leaving your stance. The kick can be thrown in the middle of a combination. It also telegraphs a lot less and is harder to check.
Its a bit like how Eddie describes twister side control. It seems weak when you start, but once you get it down you realise just how powerful it is. Yodsenkalai finishes guys with three or four of them to the body and upper arm. No shortage of power in the movement.
I am not talking about the rotation of the body, btw, but of the foot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Elliott
As to the foot not moving.....well I find it odd, every, single, high level professional Thai fighter I have seen hitting pads kicking, or fighting, rotates that foot........
The kick you describe here is the one most used, and guys rotate their foot into it, and most step when they throw it. No they dont roll the hip all the way over, but when they dont its because its used as a body kick to sneak under the rib. But the guy kicking still rotates his foot/rolls his hip, he just waits to transfer the force from upward to inward (if that makes sense).
What you just described, at every level I have ever seen it, the guy throwing the kick either moves his foot at the beginning of the kick, or he rotates his foot during the execution. The ONLY time I have seen it done where a guy doesnt rotate his foot is pad work where a guy is doubling/triple kicking and keeps the foot more stationary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxzmm...eature=related note, he is rotating the foot pretty much every single round kick. Now if what he is doing is what you mean, then I think we are having a communication break down. If you are talking about something else, post a vid of someone doing it.
But the whole foot movement thing, is where you did say I said something not true (with me saying that plant foot moves, pretty much any round kick that has bad intentions on it) when, from my experience, watching hundreds of Kickboxing (K1) and thai boxing matches that plant foot is going to move, even if its only a rotation.
I think you are confusing the spinning in a circle, as something I was endorsing. I have only ever seen it endorsed for beginners/shadow boxing tool. I was asking Frank as to the "switch" step he was talking about from a rear round kick. I could only guess he was talking about the movement of the plant foot in the direction of the kick to open the hips, and since I see almost every top level pro, doing just that ( a tiny step when kicking) when they mean to do damage.......well it seems that is the way its done.
Didnt bother to mention years of training and seeing it demonstrated this way, since we really cant plug past experiences into video, we can however all look at fight vids from the web.
Buakaw does, your right to a certain extent. But as I said, its not the rule. I think we are having a bit of a communication breakdown. This is not an easy way to figure it out. Let me get out of hospital and get a video camera and some proper internet and I will show you what Im talking about. Theres youtube vids I could look up too but I only have very limited bandwidth.
The video is titled "greatest Muay Thai fighter", which is stretching it a bit. Hes a great K1 fighter. He doesnt have any Lumpinee titles.