Placeholder(after world's): 'Carne-val Combo', 'Rubber Stamp', Captain Morgan, Evil-

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Taking away the angle is a HUGE "what if". If you spin or attempt to roll out of the Omaplata, that doesn't make it a counter for you, it makes it a sweep for me. If you’re trying to block with your elbow and pass to side control, the Carni is there. You’re basing an entire counter on "pain compliance" which has a huge scale of effectiveness. Submissions, sweeps, escapes need to be based on functionality and frequency. If the foundation of a techniques is based on pain you will have varied results, consistency will be unreliable at best. An entire series of counters on “I hope he reacts to this” is like building a house on soggy ground. None of the “what ifs” will matter if they don’t respond to the “pain compliance” you’re attempt to gain a reaction from.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it won't work. I'm stating you must ask yourself will this work with most people, most of the time? In my experince with pain compliance techniques the answer is "no", the levels of response vary far too greatly.

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Yes, this works for most people. Ultimately I don't want to get caught in a submission from RG. If I have to force someone to choose a different path to catch me, that's what I'm looking for. I've gotten nothing but good feedback from those I've shown in person, and there are a few on this board that have had success with it. Will it work to open your RG up, maybe not but I'm not just going to give you the path to a sub. Instead, I'll keep you tipped upside-down, constantly applying downward pressure while your oxygen decreases, and you say, "damn this sucks". All the while i'm just Tri-podding.

I know it seems as if it wouldn't work, but again I've been doing this for over 2 years and I've had nothing but success. I want to be proven otherwise and i wanted to give others an option, hence the video. Trust me, if I felt it didn't work, I wouldn't have made it for the world to see.

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Originally Posted by jamesguy

working well for me,look forward to your future vids rick :).

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That's awesome James! Thank you!

Do you have a timeline for when you are going to bust out the other videos or is it just when you can get to it. Jw

Let me just jump in as devils advocate here and back Herzog's opinion on "pain-compliant" techniques not being effective 100% of the time. Granted, you don't want to "goon" anything or look for a forced reaction, you wanna hit your path with clean technique, makes sense. I can also see what Rick means though when he says it's been working for 2 years, proof is in the pudding, eh? So that I would say that although it is a technique reliant on pain to succeed initially, that attack can be developed, much like you do for your RNC squeeze for example, so that over time you have a larger scale of success with it, because you put the numbers in ;) I think that's the wonderful think about Jits, it's that given enough mat time spent on any single technique you can really develop what works for you and thus raise the success rates on moves people couldn't normally apply effectively.

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Originally Posted by Brent Smith

Do you have a timeline for when you are going to bust out the other videos or is it just when you can get to it. Jw

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Brent man, I was gonna do it this week but I threw my back out on Monday.. I think I did at least. Wasn't able to leave the gym by the amount of pain I had. I'm recovering, but remember--- stretch before jits. I will never ever grapple again without stretching my back, arms, legs and neck for warm up.

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Originally Posted by Compella

Let me just jump in as devils advocate here and back Herzog's opinion on "pain-compliant" techniques not being effective 100% of the time. Granted, you don't want to "goon" anything or look for a forced reaction, you wanna hit your path with clean technique, makes sense. I can also see what Rick means though when he says it's been working for 2 years, proof is in the pudding, eh? So that I would say that although it is a technique reliant on pain to succeed initially, that attack can be developed, much like you do for your RNC squeeze for example, so that over time you have a larger scale of success with it, because you put the numbers in ;) I think that's the wonderful think about Jits, it's that given enough mat time spent on any single technique you can really develop what works for you and thus raise the success rates on moves people couldn't normally apply effectively.

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Wise is Compella!! Thank you. I see your point and Herzog's. I wasn't trying to say it was a be all end all, but I knew it worked quite well and was at least worth a look. I see a lot of RG breaks on the net, but some of them are wishful thinking.

Hey BTW, waiting for my buddy to contact me back with the info. I know he's fighting over there so if I dont catch him via Skype, I'll see him when he gets back to the states.

I just want to point out how bad ass it is that there is a website where I can watch a couple of brown belts debate jiu-jitsu theory!

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Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

I just want to point out how bad ass it is that there is a website where I can watch a couple of brown belts debate jiu-jitsu theory!

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I was gonna start an entirely new thread about just that Andrew! But you beat me to posting. Yup it's the depth of knowledge and openness here that makes this forum very unique. What other sites are like this? The underground, Sherdog? Maybe, but then the threads go to crap after a while.

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Originally Posted by Slick Rick

Brent man, I was gonna do it this week but I threw my back out on Monday.. I think I did at least. Wasn't able to leave the gym by the amount of pain I had. I'm recovering, but remember--- stretch before jits. I will never ever grapple again without stretching my back, arms, legs and neck for warm up.

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OUCH. Back injuries are the worst. Heal up brotha!

Dude...this is awesome....it went like this:

http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...0521613bb1.jpg

http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...eed60f2e0d.jpg



Now it's time for the 2 coasts to battle!!!

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Originally Posted by StephenG

Dude...this is awesome....it went like this:

http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...0521613bb1.jpg

http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...eed60f2e0d.jpg



Now it's time for the 2 coasts to battle!!!

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That's cool as shiza! Hahahah! Nah man we arent in a coast to coast battle. We're in a world wide movement!! Our plans and tactics are hashed out here for all to see, because in the end, "the revolution will not be televised!"

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Originally Posted by Compella

Let me just jump in as devils advocate here and back Herzog's opinion on "pain-compliant" techniques not being effective 100% of the time. Granted, you don't want to "goon" anything or look for a forced reaction, you wanna hit your path with clean technique, makes sense. I can also see what Rick means though when he says it's been working for 2 years, proof is in the pudding, eh? So that I would say that although it is a technique reliant on pain to succeed initially, that attack can be developed, much like you do for your RNC squeeze for example, so that over time you have a larger scale of success with it, because you put the numbers in ;) I think that's the wonderful think about Jits, it's that given enough mat time spent on any single technique you can really develop what works for you and thus raise the success rates on moves people couldn't normally apply effectively.

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People are more likely to say "this sucks im going to work my open guard" in the gym but try it on a guy who cut weight, paid 60 bucks traveled across town or further, has his coach yelling in his ear and a video camera rolling. Then there is mma with money on the line, you got people with broken arms, coming back from unconsciousness, blood squirting out of their head arguing with refs and docs that they are good to keep going! I think its going to take more than a couple knuckles digging in the back of those guys to get them to let go especially when the alternative to the knuckles in the back is knuckles in your face.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Wylie

People are more likely to say "this sucks im going to work my open guard" in the gym but try it on a guy who cut weight, paid 60 bucks traveled across town or further, has his coach yelling in his ear and a video camera rolling. Then there is mma with money on the line, you got people with broken arms, coming back from unconsciousness, blood squirting out of their head arguing with refs and docs that they are good to keep going! I think its going to take more than a couple knuckles digging in the back of those guys to get them to let go especially when the alternative to the knuckles in the back is knuckles in your face.

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I like your style. ;-)

Thanks, I like your attitude and appreciate you putting this stuff out there for us. It might not be for me but you are still sharing.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Wylie

Thanks, I like your attitude and appreciate you putting this stuff out there for us. It might not be for me but you are still sharing.

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Very true. Very true. Its definitely a learning experience for me, and I didn't get to where I am by keeping techs to myself. Share, refine, and redefine... Doing my part to keep the system moving.

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Originally Posted by StephenG

Dude...this is awesome....it went like this:

http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...0521613bb1.jpg

http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...eed60f2e0d.jpg



Now it's time for the 2 coasts to battle!!!

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LOL beautiful! Its a great thing that we can have a back an forth debate, where the outcome is we all win.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Wylie

People are more likely to say "this sucks im going to work my open guard" in the gym but try it on a guy who cut weight, paid 60 bucks traveled across town or further, has his coach yelling in his ear and a video camera rolling. Then there is mma with money on the line, you got people with broken arms, coming back from unconsciousness, blood squirting out of their head arguing with refs and docs that they are good to keep going! I think its going to take more than a couple knuckles digging in the back of those guys to get them to let go especially when the alternative to the knuckles in the back is knuckles in your face.

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Agreed, now add 1.5 inches of compressed foam and leather on your hand.

Great discussion. Damn kinda wish more forums were filled with level headed folks.

Looking forward to more video updates.

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

Great discussion. Damn kinda wish more forums were filled with level headed folks.

Looking forward to more video updates.

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Thanks David, I just got the Evil guard video recorded. Gonna upload to YouTube. I hope you like it!

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Originally Posted by Slick Rick

Thanks David, I just got the Evil guard video recorded. Gonna upload to YouTube. I hope you like it!

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:)

Fellas, finally!!!
The Evil Guard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw1rLDvYV_I

Here I am at the NoGi World's this year against a guy that was a brown belt I'm guessing for at least a year[3rd in gi worlds, 3rd in pan ams, and 3rd place in this years no-gi worlds]. I was a brown for two months at the time. 6 and a half minutes with no pass, but because he had 3 advantages, I had to start moving, and eventually got messy on the offensive. My guard is that Evil Guard I describe in the link above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnFIBIlNhqY


sorry for the delay.

thanks rick. great post, very much appreciated

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Originally Posted by Tony Toffolo

thanks rick. great post, very much appreciated

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You're welcome Tony.. Hope this helps some.

i have really been doing the same regarding controlling the head over the last 6 months. its a HUGE detail that i think isn't pushed enough.

i find there are a ton of situations where you can stymie opponents from stiff-arming their head (or to go on a tangent if you can do it where you stiff-arm the head and hold it to the mat when they are in turtle to work 3/4 nelsons or keep them from getting a single leg).

long and short is if you can control the head you can control a large proportion of your opponent. marcelo has mastered the controlling the head whether its for choking, passing.... you name it.

Exactly Tony.. I didn't mention that in the vid, but when you do push the opponent to one side or the other, locking the elbow is key. If you bend the elbow, your arm bends when the apply that pressure back into you. Pimp hand that head!

word. just like football, its only legal if your arm is already extended when applying it.

very nice rick,thanks,will be working on this also.

Rick when doing evil guard I see some opennings for the guard to take the outside arm and put it between your legs then lay his chest on your leg and get it down. Since your leg would be holding the leg he wouldn't be able to keep circling but he could crawl/hop to mount.

Has this ever happened just wanted to ask and see what you think

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Originally Posted by Dennis Martinez

Rick when doing evil guard I see some opennings for the guard to take the outside arm and put it between your legs then lay his chest on your leg and get it down. Since your leg would be holding the leg he wouldn't be able to keep circling but he could crawl/hop to mount.

Has this ever happened just wanted to ask and see what you think

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Hi Dennis, I believe I'm visualizing this correctly... He would be able to and sometimes he may. I'd try to do my best at pushing his head away, and getting my one shin shield on his chest... Possibly squaring back up to face him. Again, anything can happen you just got to put in the reps to see what you're capable of. For me it's been a game changer. Rafael Mendez passed once today and eventually got to mount for the wrist lock, but that's Rafael... World champs can do things like that. It was interesting to see their reaction to it though.

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Originally Posted by jamesguy

very nice rick,thanks,will be working on this also.

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Thanks James. Drill it and if you ever have any what if scenarios, I'll do my best to explain it over the forum.

Not very evil. Effective but not evil

To me, this looks very similar to the shield 1/2-guard we play at my gym (with or without gi), aka Robson Moura's 93 guard. The only difference seems to be that you have your outside foot inside as a butterfly, instead of on the hip.

The reason we use our foot on the hip is to make it harder to "smash" the guard. In other words, getting your weight behind the knee like you showed. The problem is that it is too easy for a good top player to either do that, or use the threat to weave inside the knee and go heavy, like your opponent did in the match. He didnt get the pass, but he did get passed that part of the guard a few times.

The other advantage of having the foot on the hip is in transitions and sweeps. For example, in the omoplata you showed (I think you went to a carni or gogo or something), it's nice to avoid having to deal with the trapped butterfly hook. And if he manages to switch you to the other side (much harder to do at this point), it's still easy to stick in the butterfly for the switch.

Play around with the foot on the hip if you haven't already. It really closes off that side to the guy on top, forcing him to try to go away from the shield, and your arm on his shoulder/head makes that a nightmare. Or, just let me know why you like the foot inside, if you have already been through this.

Thanks Rick!

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Originally Posted by Tony Toffolo

word. just like football, its only legal if your arm is already extended when applying it.

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Originally Posted by Harry Evans

To me, this looks very similar to the shield 1/2-guard we play at my gym (with or without gi), aka Robson Moura's 93 guard. The only difference seems to be that you have your outside foot inside as a butterfly, instead of on the hip.

The reason we use our foot on the hip is to make it harder to "smash" the guard. In other words, getting your weight behind the knee like you showed. The problem is that it is too easy for a good top player to either do that, or use the threat to weave inside the knee and go heavy, like your opponent did in the match. He didnt get the pass, but he did get passed that part of the guard a few times.

The other advantage of having the foot on the hip is in transitions and sweeps. For example, in the omoplata you showed (I think you went to a carni or gogo or something), it's nice to avoid having to deal with the trapped butterfly hook. And if he manages to switch you to the other side (much harder to do at this point), it's still easy to stick in the butterfly for the switch.

Play around with the foot on the hip if you haven't already. It really closes off that side to the guy on top, forcing him to try to go away from the shield, and your arm on his shoulder/head makes that a nightmare. Or, just let me know why you like the foot inside, if you have already been through this.

Thanks Rick!

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Awesome input Harry. I do play around with the foot on the hip too, but good leg lockers will sometimes toil with this and try to grab the toe hold.

Yes indeed, use this in conjunction with the 93, and it makes for some interesting guard offense and defense.. I really do think it's a guard that plays to all my strengths. I'm a butterfly guy, so the one shield in, foot in the crotch, makes the transition into and out of butterfly very smooth. The butterfly attacks are key to my game as I get the arm drags, the heel hooks, and the inverted arm bars off of it.

I'm getting all the inverted stuff in there now so in the event I do get passed, I'll be able to see the world upside down for sweeps and what not.

It looks similar to Caio's type of guard as well but the foot is in the crotch in my case. Caio's sets up more of the terra guard, where what I show encompasses many guards. Also, you'll notice I use the bottom to hook the close leg, or far leg depending on the situation. One last thing is, with the guard you explain, it's only good on one side. I'll transition seamlessly from one side to the other.

I really appreciate your feedback. I really hope the stuff I put out at least opens one person's mind to different possibilities. The fact that you are giving your feedback, I'm at least getting you to ponder on it all.
Thank you so much Harry!

Thanks Rick. Solid answers. I'm a butterfly player too, threatening a lot of hooks sweeps and such, so I'll play with your way in the next few days.

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Originally Posted by Harry Evans

Thanks Rick. Solid answers. I'm a butterfly player too, threatening a lot of hooks sweeps and such, so I'll play with your way in the next few days.

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Cool Harry! I can't wait to hear about the outcome. Lemme know if I can help with anything. My guess is I'll be asking you how to pass here shortly... You have a good understanding of it already!

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Originally Posted by Tony Toffolo

i have really been doing the same regarding controlling the head over the last 6 months. its a HUGE detail that i think isn't pushed enough.

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Same here. Since Ari posted a video from a Frank Mir seminar awhile back I've been developing that straight arm on the head or armpit as they transition through. It's been immensely helpful in tons of positions (fighting a single, retaining a knee reap, etc) so I can imagine how useful it can be in Rick's technique.

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

Same here. Since Ari posted a video from a Frank Mir seminar awhile back I've been developing that straight arm on the head or armpit as they transition through. It's been immensely helpful in tons of positions (fighting a single, retaining a knee reap, etc) so I can imagine how useful it can be in Rick's technique.

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Hey AJ, that straight arm to the pit is great for that side control escape too. That pimp hand works wonders!

Still working the rubber stamp. I've added this to our routine and it was eventually bustin all my guys rubber guards including mine. I had a Gracie black belt come in whose 10th planet crushes mine. So I hit the Slickstamp and he looks at me like...nice try. I never got it to work a single time in an hour. This guy is 6'6" and weighs 310 plus enjoys pain. He wanted to revert to Rick's mentioned positions but he would just grunt and crush me tighter or elbow me to clear the head. We've all had success with the Slickstamp and I beleive it works in alot of situations. Hell why not at least try to bust rg with it? If it works...great. If not, simply flow like a boss to your other options.

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Originally Posted by Tony "The Goods" Garcia

Still working the rubber stamp. I've added this to our routine and it was eventually bustin all my guys rubber guards including mine. I had a Gracie black belt come in whose 10th planet crushes mine. So I hit the Slickstamp and he looks at me like...nice try. I never got it to work a single time in an hour. This guy is 6'6" and weighs 310 plus enjoys pain. He wanted to revert to Rick's mentioned positions but he would just grunt and crush me tighter or elbow me to clear the head. We've all had success with the Slickstamp and I beleive it works in alot of situations. Hell why not at least try to bust rg with it? If it works...great. If not, simply flow like a boss to your other options.

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Beautiful! Vivid with details. I've tried it against our 6'4-6'5 Dylan, but he's a good 230. Freaks of nature are hard to come by in jits, and aren't usually flexible like that doing RG... But I feel your pain. Just test and keep moving... On the flipside, did you at least stall him out to avoid getting caught?

Thanks Tony!

Any of the other videos in the works?