slammed in rubber guard

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Still doesn't make sense, leg locks are legal in mma. Also doesn't make sense on a rational level, slamming someone could casue far greater injuries than leg locks. Neck, spine and trauma to the brain are far more crippling than a torn acl. Leaves a lot of questions.

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I see your point, thing is you dont have to teach how to escape being slammed, you just give up the guard. You do have to teach people how to properly apply, defend, escape leg locks and they have to know what they even feel like to make a decision on when to tap. You're right of course that the potential for serious injury is greater in theory from being slammed but your talking one hell of an effort that most people cant pull off and you'd have to slam the guy from standing full upright to be serious risking major injury. I guess what I mean is it much easier to throw on a heek hook and hurt someone without giving them a chance to tap than it is to stand up with someone wrapped around your head and slam them.

If my coach saw someone stand full upright with a guy on them, he would let them slam them. Hes not anti-leg lock in anyway, not even for newbies but they have to be shown first and have it explained to them that damage can be done before it really hurt much and basically dont be a dick when applying them. Its easier to say no leg locks until all the newer guys get tired of being tapped and leave and then everyone else knows its cool. Otherwise every fickin night he'd have to start off with a little tutorial for dudes that probably will only show up a couple times. I did have other martial arts and grappling experience but I've only got 7 months on my jui jitsu white belt and he had me doing heel hooks after two weeks because I show up, stay late and am not the type to crank on a training partner inappropriately.

This is a small gym, there's no official "slams in the guard are ok" policy. In fact if there was a policy at all I guarantee you they would not be allowed. I was getting slammed repeatedly from like a 16"-24" off the ground and I was fine and still trying to work on a guy thats not as good as I am.

Since you're know as the king of leg locks a great coach, I am very interested to know how you handle newbies and more potentially dangerous techniques? Do you have beginners classes where people just start off drilling and get instruction before you just let them roll, no holds barred? I was hoping you would respond when I made this post.

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Originally Posted by Josh Bodmon

^This. Also the technique below has worked for me in the past with people who like to slam and then say 'I dunno what you're talking about bro that was no slam!': video=youtube;J705-D7lI64]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J705-D7lI64[/video]

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Good post!

Also, why not hit a star sweep?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMRg5YWLmRM

Heel hooks are one of many types of leg locks, all leg locks shouldn't be banned because the danger of one technique, and all technqiues are dangerous if you don't know how to defend them properly. I totally disagree that all you have to do to avoid a slam is open your guard or of the effort required. I've seen severe disc damage from a slam that was less than 2-3 inches off the ground while the opponent doing the slam was still on his knees. The potential risk from a slam vs a leg lock is not even in the same ball park.

At my school all new students must go through a month of technique class with live situational drills before they can roll. No twisiting leg locks while rolling (heel hooks and toe holds) until blue belt.

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Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson

I see your point, thing is you dont have to teach how to escape being slammed, you just give up the guard. You do have to teach people how to properly apply, defend, escape leg locks and they have to know what they even feel like to make a decision on when to tap. You're right of course that the potential for serious injury is greater in theory from being slammed but your talking one hell of an effort that most people cant pull off and you'd have to slam the guy from standing full upright to be serious risking major injury. I guess what I mean is it much easier to throw on a heek hook and hurt someone without giving them a chance to tap than it is to stand up with someone wrapped around your head and slam them.

If my coach saw someone stand full upright with a guy on them, he would let them slam them. Hes not anti-leg lock in anyway, not even for newbies but they have to be shown first and have it explained to them that damage can be done before it really hurt much and basically dont be a dick when applying them. Its easier to say no leg locks until all the newer guys get tired of being tapped and leave and then everyone else knows its cool. Otherwise every fickin night he'd have to start off with a little tutorial for dudes that probably will only show up a couple times. I did have other martial arts and grappling experience but I've only got 7 months on my jui jitsu white belt and he had me doing heel hooks after two weeks because I show up, stay late and am not the type to crank on a training partner inappropriately.

This is a small gym, there's no official "slams in the guard are ok" policy. In fact if there was a policy at all I guarantee you they would not be allowed. I was getting slammed repeatedly from like a 16"-24" off the ground and I was fine and still trying to work on a guy thats not as good as I am.

Since you're know as the king of leg locks a great coach, I am very interested to know how you handle newbies and more potentially dangerous techniques? Do you have beginners classes where people just start off drilling and get instruction before you just let them roll, no holds barred? I was hoping you would respond when I made this post.

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I understand where youre going with your explanation but upper body attacks are just as dangerous without proper defense knowledge. Leg locks are dangerous because a ton of people don't know how to properly defend or know the limit.
I view slamming the same as I do other dirty moves like the can opener.

If your in an mma gym, picking someone up with intent to slam is a legit tactic. It shouldn't be ignored or made illegal either because it is a realistic scenario. He should be aloud to pick you up, but not slam you. If he gets you up, he should set you back down in either open guard or side control. Everybody should be able to go to work tomorrow with proper training guidelines.

Air pump is awesome. Had a bigger training partner that would just stand up when in danger of triangles or rubber guard. Air pump made him think of other defensive stuffs rather than standing with the hopes that the fear of being lifted into the air would cause me to let go
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...LuCz8Jv9C9ClZQ

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Originally Posted by Brent Smith

I understand where youre going with your explanation but upper body attacks are just as dangerous without proper defense knowledge.

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Im not questioning you just wondering which upper body attacks are as dangerous as a heel hooks? Do heelhooks just feel weird to me for psychological reasons? seems like they can damage with out a lot of pain first?

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Originally Posted by Brent Smith

Leg locks are dangerous because a ton of people don't know how to properly defend or know the limit.

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My coach would agree with you here, he just doesn't want to go over it every time there's a new guys so that we can use them. tonight it was just a few guys and we've all been shown so it was no question leg lock allowed.

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Originally Posted by Brent Smith

I view slamming the same as I do other dirty moves like the can opener.

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Why do you feel this way about either technique? Is it that they have high potential for damage?

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

If your in an mma gym, picking someone up with intent to slam is a legit tactic. It shouldn't be ignored or made illegal either because it is a realistic scenario. He should be aloud to pick you up, but not slam you. If he gets you up, he should set you back down in either open guard or side control. Everybody should be able to go to work tomorrow with proper training guidelines.

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makes a lot of sense.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Heel hooks are one of many types of leg locks, all leg locks shouldn't be banned because the danger of one technique, and all technqiues are dangerous if you don't know how to defend them properly. I totally disagree that all you have to do to avoid a slam is open your guard or of the effort required. I've seen severe disc damage from a slam that was less than 2-3 inches off the ground while the opponent doing the slam was still on his knees. The potential risk from a slam vs a leg lock is not even in the same ball park.

At my school all new students must go through a month of technique class with live situational drills before they can roll. No twisiting leg locks while rolling (heel hooks and toe holds) until blue belt.

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Thanks coach! I really appreciate your knowledge. I would have never thought that such sort slams could do so much damage. Now I feel stupid for taking them. Your right of course about the heel hook being the only dangerous leg-lock. I know my instructor agrees. I think he says no leg locks instead of no heel hooks because if hes says no heel hooks then one of the new guys will say whats a heel hook? then he has to show them. If he says no leg locks then they dont question. He has allowed straight ankle locks and knee bars with new guys when I asked him to.

Im a long way from blue belt (i assume, i dont what blue belts are supposed to be) but we do use heel hooks when its the right crowd. We apply them very slowly and with eye contact, No one but my coach tries to escape them.

I let my instructor know I was talking about him and the gym in case he wanted to look over what I've written. I was kinda wrong about how he views 10th planet. I said he thought it was a collection of tricky moves with cool names. Thats not what he thinks, he said he knows its legit and that he got his purple belt from Rigan Machado before he went to train with dave terrell. He knew Eddie was under Jean Jacques and had some good things to say about Eddie, said he was there when he tapped royler and that Eddie must be a super cool guy to be as nice as he is with all the shit he gets from some of the jui jitsu community and that he in no way deserves said shit. Also said if we start seeing more 10th planet working in MMA then we will start drilling it.