Renzo Gracie Sets The Record Straight: ‘Sport Jiu-Jitsu & Street Jiu-Jitsu

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

I have defended myself and I have come back from some hard hits. I can concede that my mental faculties weren't at 100% but never once did my body tell me, gee it seems like a good idea to try lapel guard on dude's jacket or maybe I should try 50/50 here. Granted scrapping has been a part of my life since tangling with bullies at 4 or 5, but I don't think most men with higher functioning are going to be trying get hit in the face when their lives are possibly in jeopardy. Also, I don't see Ryron Gracie winning a street fight against Andre Galvao since you're making the argument that self defense Jiu Jitsu is supposedly better to train than sport Jiu Jitsu. To me it seems like the self defense Jiu Jitsu guys are basically selling me a vacuum cleaner because they can't hang with the best in the world. That is all. It is obvious that your mind is made up on this argument though and it also seems like you have me sized up too so I'll go back to discussing techniques on other threads and let this one go.

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Do you train lapel guard and 50/50 a lot? Not sure why you picked Ryron? Renzo would be more appropriate. Im not making the argument that self defense jits is better to train than sport. Never said that in any way. I dont train jits for self defense. Either way you are compare two people not two disciplines.
I agree that the debate is sometimes used buy people like the Rener and Ryron to bullshit people that their ideas are superior.
My argument would be;
1. there is a difference between the jits we often see in sport and the jits you would want to use to defend yourself.
2. that you will be better prepared to defend yourself using jits if you train predominantly techniques that are street applicable and have a game that is based on maintaining dominant positioning than if you train for sport and often pull guard and go inverted. Its not complicated, when you are in a fight, very often, you use the techniques that are in your muscle memory.

I have no problem believing that a guy that trains for sport and has a certain game may get caught or under serious pressure and will go to the techniques they most often train even if they are not the best for the situation.

You get beat alot by people who train hard and comfort yourself by saying its an unrealistic situation is all read.

Here are my thoughts after having skimmed through this thread.

Jiu Jitsu…regardless of sport, SD, gi, no-gi…whatever, is a thinking persons activity. We have all found ways to escape things that we have never drilled before, after our bread and butter stuff doesn’t work. We have all landed subs before that we have never drilled, because we saw an opportunity, or we were boxed in and took a hail Mary attempt at something. This is because we are thinking while this is all going on. I agree that we are best at what we practice, but in a street fight, once would never stick 100% to what has been drilled in class, because in class we are looking to make someone tap, not to permanently injure.

If I’m in a street fight…it is because someone has forced it to happen, and I don’t want to be there, I’m being attacked as I am trying to walk or run away, and my life in is danger. That being said, all bets are off…I’m looking to do permanent damage with a world or opportunities (read “no rules”). If I see a 2x4…he’s taking that shit to the dome…even though I’ve never drilled it before. If he is mounted on me and gets his face close to mine…I’m biting his nose off…or biting his cheek off…or his ear…or his throat…or grabbing a hand full of sack and twisting, or digging some fingers into eye sockets…all things that I have never drilled before. I’m not trying to make this fool tap, and I can escape the mount after this fool is damaged. Conceptual jiu jitsu…no plans on berimbolo, and I doubt I would try my bread and butter lockdown path unless it came right off of the nipple-bite setup or the eye-gouge from jaws of life. I’m looking to do harm…not make him tap.

Okay. I will be sucked in one more time. Yes I use 50/50 and more recently lapel guard. No I have never thought to use them in a fight. I choose Ryron because he is the self defense guru.. the champion of self defense Jiu Jitsu. I choose Galvao because he is an accomplished sport Jiu Jitsu champion. And I also choose those two because they showed down in Metamorris in a grappling match that Galvao mostly dominated and maintained positions that would be preferred in a fight. Renzo doesn't seem like a more appropriate example because he said "in the case of Jiu Jitsu all you need is blood in your intentions".....which in so many words makes him a proponent of both "styles" and doesn't think they should be separated.

I can agree that self defense Jiu Jitsu is easy. So easy that I have not forgotten the moves in all the techniques I have learned since. I know in a one on one fight to keep the distance, avoid strikes, close distance, clinch, takedown, cross knee pass, mount, punch, armbar/take back, choke. It is the Jiu Jitsu that works on people that don't know Jiu Jitsu and I am not going to forget it. Granted, I add more pepper than that when I am in a fight and I did oversimplify for time sake, but I don't think there are a lot of guys out there who train who don't know how to do this proficiently much past the blue maybe purple belt level if the gym is a little watered down on self defense. Maybe I am wrong though. I am from the midwest where the gyms are smaller and more time can be put into the students individually. Things may work different in California and guys who berimbolo may think that is all they need over there, but I think most rational individuals will not pull a tech that is stupid to use in a street fight regardless of how much they have trained it because people are not automatons. I don't train the clinch everyday, but I established a clinch a few weeks ago after months of neglecting it and back heel tripped my training partner. I have not worked at KFC for some time, but I bet I can still bread 64 pieces of chicken in under 3 minutes falling down drunk. I understand you are under duress in a fight and mistakes can be made and bad habits can be formed, but I believe good Jiu Jitsukas can handle themsleves. I don't completely disagree with you. You will be better prepared for a situation if you train for it, but put any good Jiu Jitsuka in a street fight and I am going to bet on him over an average brawler. That is my argument.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

You get beat alot by people who train hard and comfort yourself by saying its an unrealistic situation is all read.

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Huh?

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Originally Posted by Brian Tupper

Here are my thoughts after having skimmed through this thread.

Jiu Jitsu…regardless of sport, SD, gi, no-gi…whatever, is a thinking persons activity. We have all found ways to escape things that we have never drilled before, after our bread and butter stuff doesn’t work. We have all landed subs before that we have never drilled, because we saw an opportunity, or we were boxed in and took a hail Mary attempt at something. This is because we are thinking while this is all going on. I agree that we are best at what we practice, but in a street fight, once would never stick 100% to what has been drilled in class, because in class we are looking to make someone tap, not to permanently injure.

If I’m in a street fight…it is because someone has forced it to happen, and I don’t want to be there, I’m being attacked as I am trying to walk or run away, and my life in is danger. That being said, all bets are off…I’m looking to do permanent damage with a world or opportunities (read “no rules”). If I see a 2x4…he’s taking that shit to the dome…even though I’ve never drilled it before. If he is mounted on me and gets his face close to mine…I’m biting his nose off…or biting his cheek off…or his ear…or his throat…or grabbing a hand full of sack and twisting, or digging some fingers into eye sockets…all things that I have never drilled before. I’m not trying to make this fool tap, and I can escape the mount after this fool is damaged. Conceptual jiu jitsu…no plans on berimbolo, and I doubt I would try my bread and butter lockdown path unless it came right off of the nipple-bite setup or the eye-gouge from jaws of life. I’m looking to do harm…not make him tap.

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Sometimes it goes that way, sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

Okay. I will be sucked in one more time. Yes I use 50/50 and more recently lapel guard. No I have never thought to use them in a fight. I choose Ryron because he is the self defense guru.. the champion of self defense Jiu Jitsu. I choose Galvao because he is an accomplished sport Jiu Jitsu champion. And I also choose those two because they showed down in Metamorris in a grappling match that Galvao mostly dominated and maintained positions that would be preferred in a fight. Renzo doesn't seem like a more appropriate example because he said "in the case of Jiu Jitsu all you need is blood in your intentions".....which in so many words makes him a proponent of both "styles" and doesn't think they should be separated.

I can agree that self defense Jiu Jitsu is easy. So easy that I have not forgotten the moves in all the techniques I have learned since. I know in a one on one fight to keep the distance, avoid strikes, close distance, clinch, takedown, cross knee pass, mount, punch, armbar/take back, choke. It is the Jiu Jitsu that works on people that don't know Jiu Jitsu and I am not going to forget it. Granted, I add more pepper than that when I am in a fight and I did oversimplify for time sake, but I don't think there are a lot of guys out there who train who don't know how to do this proficiently much past the blue maybe purple belt level if the gym is a little watered down on self defense. Maybe I am wrong though. I am from the midwest where the gyms are smaller and more time can be put into the students individually. Things may work different in California and guys who berimbolo may think that is all they need over there, but I think most rational individuals will not pull a tech that is stupid to use in a street fight regardless of how much they have trained it because people are not automatons. I don't train the clinch everyday, but I established a clinch a few weeks ago after months of neglecting it and back heel tripped my training partner. I have not worked at KFC for some time, but I bet I can still bread 64 pieces of chicken in under 3 minutes falling down drunk. I understand you are under duress in a fight and mistakes can be made and bad habits can be formed, but I believe good Jiu Jitsukas can handle themsleves. I don't completely disagree with you. You will be better prepared for a situation if you train for it, but put any good Jiu Jitsuka in a street fight and I am going to bet on him over an average brawler. That is my argument.

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I never said jits for self defense was easy. Im not following why you are mentioning forgetting anything. Its not a matter of forgetting. Its also not a matter of smart or stupid or someone believing that berimbolo is all they need. These are strawman arguments which astounds me since I clearly stated my position. Maybe you aren't actually reading my posts?
I agree that a person trained in any jits is going to have an advantage over "an average brawler" if they are close in size and the average brawler is not significantly more experienced in real life confrontations but that was never the topic of this thread nor does it counter any position Ive taken. If thats your argument then I completely agree.
Not sure why people always assume that a person attacking them has no fighting experience or martial arts training. In my experience it is the opposite.

Oh yeah I forgot to say it makes a lot of sense why you chose Ryron and Galvao now that you explain it. I see that would be obvious to a lot of people.
I just never thought of Ryron as being confirmed as able to defend himself. He teaches martial arts for self defense supposedly, (I have no idea what he teaches) but Ive never heard of him defending himself in real life like I have Renzo for example also he never did mma so Im not sure he has ever used jits while being punched.
I think that the issue of self defense jits vs sport is real but is misused as an excuse for not winning in sport.

Some of this I think is being able to breathe and somehow keep your hear rate down during times of stress. When I was back in Afghanistan the last time, one of our guys blew his legs off about 30 ft from me. It was my job to go and clear up to him and make sure there wasn't any more IED's. So, I went and got him and pulled him back and called in the medevac to get the helicopter to come get him. Then led the medic out to get the guy out of there. He lived, but the other 3 times I had been in this situation where a guy blew up, they didn't live. I will say that this last one I was more calm than the prior times, and really didn't feel a whole lot of stress this time. But, I think the first time I did actually freeze for a few seconds just due to not ever having been in that situation. I only use this example cuz I've had this happen to me more than been in fights. I've only been in one street fight and I didn't know bjj then...hahaha. You have to think that when you know the basic self defense techniques, that will allow you to stay more calm in that stressful situation. I think that, in and of itself, will give the majority of us the upper hand. Unless, like aiseop said, the guy is more skilled than we are. Or even if it's a woman. Liz Carmouche armbarred the shit out of me last week hahaha.

You said it is not complicated, when you are in a fight you use the techniques in your muscle memory. I was transitioning thoughts from "it is not complicated" to self defense Jiu Jitsu is so simple that I haven't lost the technique from training other techniques. It was a play on words, but I typed so much I can understand if the wit was lost in reading it. Beyond that, I was just being cheeky.