is jiujitsu dying in MMA?

AJ, true indeed, i'm not a fan of wrist control at all. 1st off at the higher levels of jiujitsu you attack with A & B to kill with C misdirection is key. in mma to setup a triangle with wrist control & to be hunting for that only is to damn obvious. it's easy for wrestlers to defend 1 attack at a time especially via wrist control. over unders, gable, clinch, anti posture, rubber guard, sub combos, & were in business

http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads...meh.ro5750.jpg





...of course I jest. :P

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

IMO, as long as the UFC rules stand as they are, BJJ guys shouldn't even be training subs from the bottom. They should all be sweep masters. I mean, seriously, you know how tough it is to land a sub WITHOUT punches...imagine WITH punches! Anderson couldn't do it in 3. He needed 5! Seriously, being on the bottom is horrible in the eyes of the judges. As a matter of fact, I saw some MMA fights in PA a few months back and saw guys with excellent JJ lose, despite being in control the whole time, basically because they were on their back.....even though they were controlling and firing off sub attempt after sub attempt.

I'm telling you, IMO, the next evolution of BJJ in MMA needs to be a ridiculous sweep/reversal game. Dudes need to reverse and work on a killer top game. RG is great and superior for setting up submissions....but as long as you're on bottom, with these rules, you're losing. So until that changes, dudes need to be sweep masters.

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For some subs, I find it easier to get the opening when there are punches... And then there are others that are more difficult.

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Originally Posted by RichardC

For some subs, I find it easier to get the opening when there are punches... And then there are others that are more difficult.

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The higher level wrestlers in the UFC aren't opening up to give punches anymore. Now they are literally throwing arm punches from defensive guard positions, with little to no power. The old school wrestlers like Tito Ortiz used to alternate between killing your hips and posturing up to strike. Modern wrestlers now just kill your hips and throw short punches to keep the action from being stood up.

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Originally Posted by RichardC

For some subs, I find it easier to get the opening when there are punches... And then there are others that are more difficult.

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Punches might open things up to latch on, but it's different when you're getting punched while trying to finish. Example, you get stacked on while trying to go for an armbar. That's difficult as it is, but imagine now your face is getting pounded in. JJ for tourney and JJ for MMA are two different monsters. A lot of our favorite grapplers aren't going to fare well in MMA since they're not training to deal with punches.

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

The higher level wrestlers in the UFC aren't opening up to give punches anymore. Now they are literally throwing arm punches from defensive guard positions, with little to no power. The old school wrestlers like Tito Ortiz used to alternate between killing your hips and posturing up to strike. Modern wrestlers now just kill your hips and throw short punches to keep the action from being stood up.

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And that's what makes them boring.

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

Punches might open things up to latch on, but it's different when you're getting punched while trying to finish. Example, you get stacked on while trying to go for an armbar. That's difficult as it is, but imagine now your face is getting pounded in. JJ for tourney and JJ for MMA are two different monsters. A lot of our favorite grapplers aren't going to fare well in MMA since they're not training to deal with punches.




And that's what makes them boring.

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I don't have to imagine, I've been there. Pure grappling and MMA. And what you're saying is perfectly valid. I just find more openings for some subs when there are strikes involved. The triangle is one example.

You're also right that a lot of pure grapplers are terrible in MMA. But the inverse is true, as well. It depends on how well you can adapt your game. I was at some pro fights a month or two ago where a local BB (from Brazil originally, can't recall his name off the top of my head) pulled off an inverted guard kneebar on a kid I know. Inverted guard is supposed to be a no-no in MMA, but he made it work. I've seen plenty of others try it, though, and get pounded to death.

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

The higher level wrestlers in the UFC aren't opening up to give punches anymore. Now they are literally throwing arm punches from defensive guard positions, with little to no power. The old school wrestlers like Tito Ortiz used to alternate between killing your hips and posturing up to strike. Modern wrestlers now just kill your hips and throw short punches to keep the action from being stood up.

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You're 100% right. Ground and pound has changed quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Maxwell

Guys who want to be good at MMA or even Nogi grappling need to stop looking at wrestling and jiu jitsu as two seperate entities. Wrestling and Jits in the gi are seperate but they should be considered combined when gi-less. Imagine what Penn or Torres games would look like if those guys where better wrestlers. It would open up submission opportunities for them and also prevent them from ever being smuthered Guida style. Or picture if Clay Guida was a top level jiu-jitsu guy and everytime he smothered and blanketed someone the way he does he got a sub out of it. It boils down to the reason wrestlers are boring is because they can't sub and the reason jiu-jitsu fighters get held down and layed on is because their wrestling sucks, both sides of the coin need to include the other in order fix this problem. Well, that or everyone needs to start learning 10th Planet.

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Just to add to your comment. To augment your 10PJJ take a look at Erik Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling (CSW). He superbly combines wrestling and jits and a few other arts into something pretty awesome. He's down in Orange County :-)

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Originally Posted by RichardC

I don't have to imagine, I've been there. Pure grappling and MMA. And what you're saying is perfectly valid. I just find more openings for some subs when there are strikes involved. The triangle is one example.

You're also right that a lot of pure grapplers are terrible in MMA. But the inverse is true, as well. It depends on how well you can adapt your game. I was at some pro fights a month or two ago where a local BB (from Brazil originally, can't recall his name off the top of my head) pulled off an inverted guard kneebar on a kid I know. Inverted guard is supposed to be a no-no in MMA, but he made it work. I've seen plenty of others try it, though, and get pounded to death.

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Great post. Wise words. It really is about how you adapt your game to the situation. Inverted guard? :o wow! I'd like to see that in a higher level competition. I know I've read some people say deep half guard is a no no in MMA but Fabio Maldonado pulled off an amazing deep half sweep the other day in the UFC. It really is about how you use your game in a given situation.

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Originally Posted by Leigh Richardson

Just to add to your comment. To augment your 10PJJ take a look at Erik Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling (CSW). He superbly combines wrestling and jits and a few other arts into something pretty awesome. He's down in Orange County :-)

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QFT.