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And there you go... If Rafa and Gui are ok with you wearing the rank you've earned at 10th planet, nobody else in BJJ/ GJJ should have the room to say otherwise. And if you find yourself in the place or situation where the instructor wants impose some monkey hierarchal/ ego trip I'd say that's a good divining rod for whether you should even train there or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Rick
Brandon said it perfectly in my opinion. If you're training somewhere in the Gi then ask the instructor and they will let you know how they feel. I would like to thionk most instructors would honour a No-Gi ranking and, let's face it, after rolling with you they will know if you're full of shit. The Gi game is different but it's not as different as some people are making out, comparing Judo BBs and TKD BBs.
Denny told us at his seminar that when training with Caio Terra he asked if he should wear his black belt or his last Gi rank, and Caio told him not to be stupid and wear his Black Belt. In my opinion, it should be up to the instructor.
It is way different. Every day I train in the gi I see more and more differences. Delariva, spider, lapel guard, reverse de la riva, worm guard, etc. they are entire games in gi that barely exist in no gi. Passing is far different as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser Taylor
We claim 10 th planet is it's own system. Then we throw on the bb when we get the chance.
I understand Caio and others have given permission. I won't question that. I just think we should tread lightly otherwise we may look hypocritical
Yeah that's why I feel that it's the instructors decision. If you are visiting somewhere then it really doesn't make too big a difference, but if you're going to be training often in the Gi under a new instructor then he needs to let you know whete you stand. You can't really expect to sit on the mat wearing a gi and a Black Belt and be repeatedly asking the instructor how to break grips and how Spider Guard works.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
But going into a new school with people you don't know and just assuming that because you're a No Gi WHATEVER Belt that uou can wear a Gi WHATEVER Belt may come across as disrespectful. Speaking to the coach will clear everything up :)
I would respectfully disagree with this. All those different guards you listed....does Helio, Rickson, Kron, or Marcelo use any of those? I don't think so. Does this make them not legit black belts in the gi? Yes, it can be drastically different IF you choose to train that way. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't see the logic in saying you are not a bb in the gi because you don't use certain techniques that one particular school emphasizes. That's just my take on it. And btw, I'm also a bb under Pablo Popovitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
I fully agree with this sentiment. I really liked watching Henry Akin on Inside BJJ. I go to a really "old school" bjj academy. Fabio studied with Rolls and then got his bb from Rickson. And he teaches simply that style, which I love. But, you will inevitably get people who do play spider guard, etc. My only interest in knowing those guard styles is to know how to smash through them or pass. Spider guard would definitely work with my size...6'3, 190...but I have no interest in them. I love watching Kron compete because of how he is able to still kill it with closed guard and fundamentals. And, to me, I think Eddie's system is actually more in line with Gracie self defense fundamentals than the haters think. The gi and no gi are very different, but I find it sometimes easier to break down guys' posture with the gi and use rubber guard. That cross collar grip is priceless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Ho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Ho
The argument that you don't need knowledge of these guards to be a competent black belt in this day and age is a bit reaching. I bet if I spoke to kron or Marcelo, they have advanced knowledge of all guards mentioned because they have to pass them. I could make a DVD on all the guards mentioned but I don't play them. You have to know them in this day and age
Let's use a hypothetical. Let's say someone trains all no gi with Eddie from white to black. He then goes to a gi school and puts on a black belt. He wouldn't have a basic understanding of grip breaking, cross chokes, Ezekiel's, bread cutters, baseball chokes, gi brabos, etc..., he wouldn't know how to pass any of the open guards that exist only in gi, like spider, lasso, lapel, etc. he might be able to bring the game into his realm in some areas, but overall would be lost. Is that guy deserving of wearing a black belt in gi?
If someone had a basic question about how to break a cross sleeve grip, he couldn't answer it. If a student asked how to pass a tripod guard, he would be at a loss. That is not a black belt. That's a guy parading another arts rank in a different art.
For the last two years, I have trained gi six days a week, and I had experience up to almost purple before that, and only now is understanding how to use the gi clicking at a high level. Sure, I could beat black belts on my first day, but so could a d1 wrestler beat many tenth planet browns. It doesn't mean they deserve the rank.
Is it disrespectful to just not wear a belt? Serious question cause if I were to put the gi on and not put a belt on, I think that could by pass the whole issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Smith
Wear a white belt then
Seems like the simplest and correct answer is that you should ask your instructor and it is their prerogative.
Although I have to admit I see Louis' point. Rickson or maybe let's go further and say Helio don't know any of the new guards and no one is asking them for their belts back.
I think, to me (bearing in mind i'm just a purple belt), a black belt is not defined by the number of techniques you know. It is your deep understanding of the 'concepts' and your ability to solve problems.
You see this even with JJM's interview on EBR. Rickson raised JJM's game because of the concepts he taught not so much any individual techniques taught. I remember a Henry Atkins' interview as well that talked about when spider guard just came out, Rickson had problems with it. Then he comes back the next day and starts destroying everyone. Obviously an extreme example since Rickson is Rickson, but I think that is the point. There will always be new techniques, but a black belt is someone who can, from experience figure it out because he has developed his understanding of the concepts of what makes the human body work.
Esp in BJJ where standards are very subjective, where, one instructor's blue belts are a diff standard from another, I think that it's very hard to discredit someone who's a legit no gi black belt, if they exhibit the qualities i mention above. End of the day, they will figure out the intricacies and the techniques that will work for them. Just because they dont' know how to do a bread cutter doesn't mean they aren't black belts.
Maybe I'm oblivious to the significant differences because i've studied both gi and no gi my whole BJJ career, but I believe the concepts are not as different as people think. Say for example guards, people's guards work based on establishing a type of 'control' (grip or clinch etc.) on the other person. You take away that control and there is no guard. I would think that after being caught in spider grips a few times a no gi BB can quickly learn to either not let someone get the same grip, or break it or grab the person's pants next time it happens. (but maybe i'm wrong)
But again, I think it's the instructor's prerogative and all this is irrelevant in the end if you ask whoever you are training with and respect that. OR if you don't, then move. :)
First, The problem with asking the instructor at whatever gym we go to is that we are now saying that that instructor can decide how they want to characterize our rank. Instead of doing it ourselves, we are leaving it up to other people to define our rank. It seems that it would be in our best interest to create our own definitions, instead of leaving it up to other people.
Second, if someone doesn't know the bread cutter choke, or some of the other basic chokes I outlined, then they are not a black belt. It is like saying you are a black belt in no gi while not knowing how to do a guillotine or kimura. These are the basic foundational chokes of gi jujitsu.
Third, not understanding how to do grip breaking is like not understanding how to control someone from the top. It is an essential part of jujitsu that cannot be ignored. In fact Marcelo calls it the most important part of winning in the gi. So no gi practitioners are missing that part of the game but they want to be considered at the top level of that game by wearing the highest rank?
Fourth, Henry Akins doesn't get to decide anything about 10th planet or other jujitsu practitioners. He comes from a lineage the criticizes all other jujitsu for being too sporty. I like how everyone is now bandwagoning with him when he shits on everyone else's jujitsu. If you don't think that he has shit on the rubber guard in private then you probably don't know much about how he thinks. This is the guy that you want to use to defend your point. The same guy that would probably say that our jujitsu is crap because it doesn't follow the exact thinking of Helio or rickson. I don't want to get too much into what I've heard him say about 10th planet practitioners who have visited his gym but it hasn't been The most complementary.
Fifth, if you don't have extensive training in both, then your opinion is not heavily weighted to me. you don't go asking about brain surgery to a Neonatal nurse.
Bottom line is that people in our association are going to continue to wear the rank they have no gi in the gi. It will muddy the waters even more . But instead of dealing with it now, we will just let it slide until something big comes up and perhaps even embarrassing for us., like someone from 10 planet teaching a gi class wearing his no gi rank and having some gi practitioner come in and question all the techniques that guy is teaching. I don't think that is too far off from happening.
It's one thing for a guy to give you permission to wear rank in his class. It's another to have him say you could represent him at that rank. So instead of asking what I can wear inside of his gym, I would ask if he was comfortable with me repping his gym wearing that belt. That would show you where his real opinion lies
Again, I would respectfully disagree with your point of view. I personally don't feel that knowing specific techniques determines whether you are a black belt or not, gi or no gi. To me, it's more about feel...harnessing the leverage to defeat your opponent., etc. But that's just my personal interpretation. I would guess that Rickson Gracie is not up to speed on some (if not a lot) of the techniques you had listed. Does that make his rank any less? Or outdated? There will always be newer ways to manipulate the gi to sweep and choke. Learning these is great. But I don't believe that a list of which techniques you know should be the main determining factor of your rank, gi or no gi.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
I think knowing basics is a requirement for rank. Many items I listed are basics. I can't imagine you have promoted anyone to blue belt who doesn't know a kimura. So are you arguing from theory or realityQuote:
Originally Posted by Louis Ho
Didnt really answer my question but I guess the question doesnt matter because I have no interest in putting the gi on. To each their ownQuote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
If a 10th planet ranked purple belt was visiting my school in Connecticut (an ATT school), where there are no 10p schools around, but he wanted to train, as we all do when we travel, and it was gi night (2 days a week it's no gi), then I would gladly insist (even let them borrow) a purple belt to train. (I only teach once a week a Judo for BJJ class). It's jiu-jitsu. It's like getting a driver's license in one state and going to another state. Honoring the license, even though the standards may be slightly different in each.
Aiseop that is an excellent point
I see it like driving an automatic vs manual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
But you don't need a seperate license to drive a manual or automatic, and what about the other way around? For someone who has only ever trained in the gi don't we honor their belt when they visit a 10th Planet School even tho they're not well versed in the system?Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
If (and when) I visit a 10th planet school, before I show up, I'll call the owner/instructor and tell them I'm a brown belt at an ATT school, here's my school's website. My instructor is so and so. (So far everything that I do for all schools I visit.) What is the 10th planet school going to say to me? Don't bring your ATT gi with no gi skills on the mat? Nah, welcome, have fun. Visit us again.
Now, if I were to JOIN a 10th planet school, I would honor whatever the owner/instructor decides: put me in purgatory for six months, demote me, or let me be ranked as is knowing that I am not going anywhere up in rank ANY time soon.
This is a really interesting discussion with logical and compelling arguments on both sides.
FRAT to follow:
It seems like as time goes on the definition of "BJJ BB" is breaking down in two ways: 1) the definition of a BB is changing, and 2) the definition of BJJ is changing.
"Black Belt" Definition Drift:
Back when I started in 2001 or 2002, my idea of a BJJ BB was pretty awe inspiring. In my mind at that time, a BJJ BB was a guy who could roll through almost anyone gi or no-gi. There was also a strong connection in my mind between a BJJ BB and vale tudo/MMA prowess.
Fast forward a dozen years and now when I hear that someone is a BJJ BB the next question I hear is always "But, how good are they." Some of them suck now. Some of them suck in no-gi and some suck in both no-gi and gi. Some have done VERY little no-gi. A lot of guys are getting to BB for simply accruing enough years. The role of a guys ability to "kick ass on the ground" is diminishing and the role of "time in" is becoming more important. Along with this "time in" thing, it seems like there is also a greater emphasis on "(new) BJJ culture" like use of OSS, bowing, more Portuguese terms, more Japanese terms, paying fees to get your BB and your gym "recognized" by a central organization, BJJ exercises that basically approach kata (see Nic Gregoriades), lineage, affiliation with a large Brazilian run gym, formal belt promotion tests, belt promotion gauntlets, and photos of dead guys on the wall. There is also a much more tenuous connection between BJJ prowess and vale tudo/MMA prowess these days. The connection between wrestling prowess and MMA prowess is comparatively much stronger.
"BJJ" Definition Drift:
Back in 2001 or 2002, I remember hearing people accusing non-BJJ ground fighters of "doing BJJ" or "borrowing from BJJ" regardless of what their background was. SAMBO, Judo, and catch guys doing anything good on the ground that wasn't a twisting leg lock might all be told that they were really doing BJJ and just re-labeling it as a part of their respective discipline (See Royce's comments about Matt Hughes beating him with GJJ/BJJ).
Now in 2014, I see a ton of guys trying to say it's only "BJJ" if you are training in the gi at least some of the time. There is also a new emphasis on lineage. Fair enough. But, before, the trend was for BJJ guys to argue that most of everything that worked on the ground was BJJ and now the trend is for BJJ guys to argue that techniques are not BJJ because of how they are practiced, attire worn, and etc.
The Effect of Both Drifts Together:
The BB definition drift is probably inescapable since the greater the number of people involved in enforcing a standard, the more deviation you are going to see in a standard. The BJJ definition drift is actually a choice by the BJJ community. They could have chosen to embrace 100% no-gi training as an equally valid specialization under the BJJ umbrella. Instead, a large number of BJJ guys are choosing to shun 100% no-gi as being "not BJJ".
My opinion is that this movement away from a higher performance based standard for the "BJJ BB" (by many, but not all) along with the movement towards exclusion of 100% no-gi from "BJJ" (by many, but not all) is leading BJJ down a slippery slope that has a much more TMA/LARP flavor to it than the grappling discipline I encountered in 2001-2002. Sure, there are still the hardcore competitors and hardcore competition gyms, but there are an increasing number of guys just clothing themselves in BJJ culture to compensate for the actual level of their ground grappling skills.
The BJJ definition drift towards strict gi-only conceptions further divorces BJJ from actual performance of ground grappling since it reduces the number of guys who can walk in off the street and mount a reasonable challenge to BJJ guys. There are a lot of ex-high school and college wrestlers in North America. Straight out of wrestling, those guys are a much bigger threat in no-gi than they are in the gi. So, by removing no-gi from the definition of BJJ, they are making it less likely that a wrestler or other no-gi guy can come in off the street and humiliate them in BJJ.
I fully expect that this trend will continue and eventually BJJ will be an even more niche gi-centric sport with the same relation to no-gi and MMA that Tae Kwon Do has to kickboxing and MMA (many would argue we are already there).
A Possible Solution:
I feel like ditching the belt paradigm in both gi and no-gi would be a great way to reverse a lot of this.
Focusing on actual performance and not belts has worked for folkstyle/freestyle/greco-roman wrestling, boxing, and muay thai for a long time with no problems. They are all taught and practiced at a very high level today. They also have all retained very high applicability to combat/vale tudo/MMA.
Focus on belts is a common thread in a lot of the TMA LARPapalooza that we see today.
Judo could be cited as an exception here. But, it seems like the balance between belt and competition focus there is skewed toward competition anyway.
This doesn't even address the benefits that ditching belts has toward reducing drama over who is getting promoted when, sandbagging, different schools recognizing belts, and etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Herrera
We don't honor their black belt. We say they are a bjj bb and not a 10th planet one.
TrueQuote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
Awesome response
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
Lots of proprietary-minded Gracie schools do this, too. He has a BJJ black belt, not a Gracie jiu-jitsu black belt. I'm hearing more and more people from that camp say that Brazilian jiu-jitsu IS NOT Gracie jiu-jitsu. Which is fine by me because I'll roll with anyone, travel anywhere, and host anyone. Whatever you want to wear is cool. I'll honor your rank, and I hope you all honor my rank when I visit because the skills don't disappear when I step on a different mat.Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_littell
Great points. Gracie Academy doesn't follow IBJJF belts and now with Rickson's new JJGF, who knows how that's gonna go with belt promotions, etc. And really doesn't every school just really promote the way they want to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiseop
This is a very interesting discussion, especially when I consider how it applies to myself. I have a brown belt under Eddie, but I have never even once rolled in a gi. I have been considering putting on the gi simply to do something new and interesting to keep my game fresh. Clearly I will be crushed by at least purple belts if not also blue belts. On the other hand, wouldn't it be a bit disingenuous for me to don a white belt? Certainly I lack any sort of understanding of gi grips; I am completely mystified when watching high-level gi matches (e.g., Rafa Mendes v. Clark Gracie). I'm sure I'll easily succumb to simple chokes and sweeps.
What do you guys think? Should I wear a white belt and smash people, or should I wear a brown belt and embarrass 10th Planet?
I say wear the White and smash. If you enroll at a school let the instructor worry about your rank. I feel like it is similar to if a Olympic wrestler walked into a school. I would also love to find out if whites, blues and purples are able to tap you if you decide to wear the gi :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Amir Allam
You'll be fine. I was immediately competitive at and above my rank when I first threw on the gi. A solid base is a solid base. I couldn't explain what half the gi chokes are but beyond getting caught by surprise a couple of times I know how to protect my neck, and my attacks work regardless. Passing the open guard still eludes me though. I just threw a bunch of 10p patches on my gi by way of disclaimer and wore my 10p rank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amir Allam
My opinion.
Belting requirements and regulations aren't really standardized across all bjj, I left it up to my gi coach what I should wear and I think that is the best bet. I started training in the gi about a month before Denny promoted me to purple. Daniel Gracie (gi instructor) immediately had given me three stripes and kept me there until I learned how to start breaking grips. A few months later he also gave me my purple. Offensively I still know less gi specific attacks then most of the white belts, but I can defend the gi moves and transition to where I am comfortable. He won't be asking me to cover a gi class anytime soon even if I happened to be the highest rank there, but according to his standards my ability to teach a breadcutter isn't imperative. My ability not to get caught in it is. Only the instructor will know what their standard is. Don't expect to keep the same rank, don't get butt hurt if they move you down, don't be surprised if they keep you at whatever you came in with.