@tim
I know that's really the only thing I don't like about it is how because werea Christian nation its like taboo to question it.
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@tim
I know that's really the only thing I don't like about it is how because werea Christian nation its like taboo to question it.
Yeah, I don't think that Christians understand how pervasive and insistent they are with that stuff. Like today, I asked a woman how she was doing and she said, "I'm blessed." What a self serving non functional and irrelevant response, I mean I still didn't know how she was doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Elliott
And it's not like I want everybody to not be allowed to express themselves, that's not what I'm saying. But too many people seem to operate under the assumption that we are all theists and they have no idea how their statements sound within a context outside of their subjective world view.
@Zach: What nation are you in? ;)
It must be different in WA. We get attacked from all angles up here. Religion seems to be a little taboo to discuss in public.
@AJ: Yeah, Christian-Speak is annoying, even to half the Christians out there. "Blessed" can be Christian-Speak for "lucky." Some Christians will, when they are in the company of other Christians, "correct" you if you say lucky because technically we don't believe in luck. That's annoying. But I think the world is like that. Every time you drop an F bomb in public, or worse say "Jesus Christ!" we're gritting our teeth. Tolerance is key I guess....
Jesus Christ some guy posts a thread about how Joe Rogan has changed his life for the better and you come on here, hand pick a short rant Joe had about people blindly following religion without thinking for themselves, and attack. There is nothing wrong in his statement, as he was obviously referring to extremists of religion, or those who have been fed it for their whole lives and never once questioned it for themselves or rationally. Are you a religious person who fits into this category? Based on your utter disdain for Joe for that 5 minute discussion (Again not even in relation to the topic of the TS' thread) I'd have to think so...
1) Um... there are PLENTY of other forums to debate religion on the web... Please don't litter 10planetjj with it.
2) You say you teach religion so I'm assuming you have children as you said you were working for Microsoft (and are not a priest/minister etc). If you have children do you give them the option to think freely and offer them alternate ideals? Or do you shove it down their throats and scare them with "Hell" lol
If you don't have kids, and "teach religion" then maybe you're one of those guys who won't shut up about it?
3) Believing in Jesus Christ/god is as significant as believing in Gandhi, Allah or Santa Claus. None of these (and yet all of them) are "the truth"
In my opinion Christianity is just as much of a cult as Scientology is. They are both ridiculous in many ways (Humans starting from Adam and Eve, the earth being only around 2000 years old, dinosaur fossils and bones being put here only to "test one's faith" vs The belief in Xenu, dyanetics, becoming clear and so forth) But they both are based around MORALS and the morals are what count the most. Take away the religion but leave in the "Do unto those which you would like to be done unto you" type thing however it goes haha;)
I promise, I didn't actually ask Keegan to make my points for me all in one huge diatribe. :)
Keegan, I'm going to isolate and address the one thing you said that is worth addressing, the rest is going on the mental burn heap. Suffice it to say that I don't take advice from people who make an unbacked moral argument from a point of view I don't share.
My kid is 1. By the time he's your age he'll know more about evolution than you do. Done.
As to your assumption that I've never questioned it, I did. My father is a pastor and he's also got his bachelor's degree in Systematics and Ecology. He knows evolution backwards and forwards and can dismantle it pretty easily. We're both natural born skeptics. We looked over the evidence for both points. It wasn't a hard decision.
How is it I keep getting lured back to this thread? I suck at not getting pulled into this type of thing. I'm going to try to extricate myself from this thread. If someone starts making personal attacks again, I'll probably fail miserably. Again. ;)
You an AJ, despite have opposite views, seem to be the only two people here that have actually discussed the matter without any personal attacks to each other (unless I missed something while reading, but for the most part you haven't). It's not a bad thing for two people with opposite views to have a clean and friendly debate on why they believe what they believe, whether those beliefs are based on science or morals or whatever. Just sayin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
Well, what she meant was more along the lines of, "Jesus has specifically granted me the honor of having a pleasant day as a reward for my religious convictions." but there's no need to explain it to me. Been there done that. I'm familiar with the whole range of Christians archetypes and I definitely don't just disregard them upon a whim or a funny comment. It's not some mysterious subculture, it what our neighbors do on Sunday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
I agree. But this isn't my first time on a forum, so I know I'm not making any friends on this thread. And if I'm not careful, I'm going to 'earn' so much disrespect and hate that my ability to learn here will be compromised. Seriously. Like Renato says, I'm here for jiu jitsu, that's it. I can't learn jiu jitsu by browsing forums but I can learn *about* jiu jitsu. That has to be enough for a few months and it should help me in the long run.
That said, I'm not going to sit back and be isolated and bullied. It's not the way.
We (christians in general) are still wrestling with this, this idea that you can do something and then God owes you something. It's bullcrap. IMO.Quote:
as a reward for my religious convictions.
There are many things that Christians wrestle with. Living in contrived internal conflict is always an aspect of mind control. To keep the conversation from being overly personalized I'll use Scientology as an example.
Most people are brought in to Scientology via the self help book Dianetics. In Dianetics, you are taught that all of the bad things in your life are brought about by the existence of thetans. These thetans come about via negative energy and various other things but through the semantic of "thetans" the book teaches you to view the world through a paradigm of positive energy versus thetans. It seems like a harmless arbitrary semantic and most of the self help methods are typical of any book in the genre, but then it gets weird.
After awhile you start discussing the book with others, sharing methods of getting rid of thetans. Then low and behold, you discover that the local Scientology center has a comprehensive process for "clearing" you of all of your "thetans". Sign me up, anything to make my life better. At this point, your locked formed of semantics has trapped you within a contrived and fictitious structure of fake problems and a temporary solution which requires you to keep coming back for your fix. At each "clearing" treatment you are told that you are making progress and encouraged to give more and more all in the hope reaching a point of internal peace and ascending in your rank within the church.
True peace, spirituality, harmony etc is unattainable. In truth they are just ideal abstractions and they don't even exist.
Sorry if I came off as an asshole, it was clear that my post was pretty hate filled. For that I apologize!
However I do strongly believe that you should not have "jacked" the thread by turning (and knowingly doing so) into a religious debate. The poster's original intent was to share that Rogan has opened his eyes a bit and is getting on a healthier life path because of it. There is nothing but positivity there. You felt the need to write a mini novel filled with nothing but negativity, because you didn't agree with 5 minutes of what Joe had to say out of a 2 hour podcast. You shouldn't have posted at all if you dislike him so much for so little, and you knew that it with every comment agreeing with you, you would have 10 who wouldn't. More useless negativity.
I'm sure you're 1 year old would be disappointed if he was old enough to comprehend that his father is a preaching troll... lol:D;)
Seriously though, don't take what I say to heart.. you seem like a pretty sensitive guy regarding a topic we shouldn't have even gotten into!
For the TS; Great job pal, hope you continue on with what you're doing! You'll keep seeing improvements as long as you stay motivated and keep pushing towards whatever your set goal is. Keep up updated!
Well, I think this forum was clearly inviting religious view points. The title of Rogan's video is the central theme. If you are merely human and think that you are privy to any "beyond life" answers, you're crazy. Not zealots or extremists only... IMHO. I'd hate to put words in Joe's mouth; but I think it's pretty obvious.
I love threads like these, but the debate will never end; It boils down to rational thinking and logic vs. superstition -and that's just not a fair fight. I've decided to try and bridge the gap and merge logic with superstition so now I pray to God(squared), or God to the second power. You know... God's God. If intelligent design is right, and anything complex had to be fabricated by a builder -why then who is to say that God is simple and knowable? No one! God MUST have been created by a super-super intelligence.
I'm tellin' you. Religions are only praying to middle management.
@Peter, you're crazy if you think rational thinking and logic are the exclusive property of the atheists only. And based on the conclusion you made as a result of your God squared scenario, I find it unlikely that reason and logic are your forte. I would put my skills in reason and logic up against yours or anyone else of your choosing so as to make it a "fair fight," to borrow a phrase. But, your condescending sarcasm was laughable though. God Bless. :)
His god squared comment was just a parody of the cyclical self defeating flawed logic of the "then who created it?" argument. He also never stated once that he was an atheist. That's the ultimate issue anyways, religion is in conflict with the lack of proof and logic within itself. You could kill all the atheists on the planet and that conflict would still exist.
@Orlando, I'm pretty sure his logic is rock solid, but he does come off a little condescending. And it's pretty clear he's an atheist. I do, however, have a problem with your post. At least Peter had a point in his post, whereas you just had an attack without a counterpoint. I mean, you couldn't just rest on a rhetorical point like atheists aren't the only logical party in a religious debate, and think you won the argument, could you? I, for one, would like to hear an elaboration.
AJ, I understand that it was a parody because of his attempted humorous tone and the flawed logic. What I took exception to was the: "It boils down to rational thinking and logic vs. superstition -and that's just not a fair fight." statement. As if it is a "fight", a "fight" (his words), or argument between the rational and logical vs the superstitious (non-rational, Synonym: gullible, untrue, born yesterday, apprehensive, credulous, etc, etc ). He's implying that his argument is the only one derived from rationality and logic. And that it is superior to the counter point. Why else would he call it, "not a fair fight?" BTW I never said, he is an atheist" or "he said he was an atheist." I am arguing against the generalized statement not the man.
Pete D., My post was a reaction to the implication that theists are "crazy"for their beliefs, and not "rational" or not "logical." It wasn't an attack. It was in defense of generalized statement he made. I purposely left my post open ended to potentially invite others into the conversation, and return to it as it progresses. This is a conversation, right? It's not "a hit and run" speech making session. There will be no winner and loser. We're just talking. And at the end of the day, they are just words. From experience,we all know that there will be no clear cut answer that satisfies either side. I see it as trying to squeeze out an easy/trivial answer to a monumentally complex/significant question. People much smarter and much more invested in this debate than us haven't come up with "the answer." Can you agree with my statement that ration thought and logic are not the exclusive property of the non-theist (atheist)? Or do you want me to prove it? Or offer a Mathematical Real analysis that his logic is faulty? AJ and I already acknowledged it was purposefully faulty for the sake of satire.
Posted by joe on twitter pretty crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALCOqBSYLkg&feature=youtu.be
AJ,
"That's the ultimate issue anyways, religion is in conflict with the lack of proof and logic within itself." I don't agree with this statement, religion is in conflict because of peoples hypocrisy and their failure to abide by their own moral code. "You could kill all the atheists on the planet and that conflict would still exist." It's interesting that you phrased it that way. Do you think theists want non-theists dead?
To go back a statement you made earlier. About the "blessed" lady, I found it interesting that you rejected Josh's interpretation of the word "blessed" as "lucky." Instead, interpreted her word " blessed" to say, "Jesus has specifically granted me the honor of having a pleasant day as a reward for my religious convictions," even though there was not any previous indication in her belief in Jesus. No wonder there is such a disconnect. We (humans) are not even perceiving words the same.
Because everyone lives by a different personal moral code, all I can do is try to try to determine if people are being true to their own particular belief system and if their intention is honorable. One time, while on a run on a Saturday morning, I passed a Rabbi and as I passed him I wished him a "good morning," his reply "Good Shivas" [sic]. Now, I'm not Jewish nor do I understand or know what he meant, but I did receive his good intention through his body language. To this day, I don't know what that means but respected him for speaking to me in his own authentic way which is grounded his own particular belief system. I respectfully, ask you to try and not be offended when you identify that people are being true to what they believe in. Life's too short.
BTW, I think that is a great picture with you and your child. To me it's about love for all people. Though, I will admit that some people are harder to love than others. :-) Have a good one.
Yes, well that goes back to my Scientology analogy. Religion requires a perpetual state of sin in order to have followers. That's the hook to it all. Sinning, atonement, sinning atonement, it's all a very vicious cycle. The bar is set high for a reason. But all of that is a different issue altogether from what my point was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando Rosæ
The burden of proving that Jesus came back from the dead or that Joseph Smith found some gold plates in the woods lies on those that choose to believe. These sorts of claims will never go without question as long as logic and rational are present. I personally don't view myself as an atheist. I'm just a guy who asks questions when things don't make sense. In all current religions, there's a lot of things that don't make sense. It's as simple as that.
That older woman who said she was "blessed", was sincerely referring to a higher power. Maybe she did say it in a clichéd passing manner, but the term itself implies that someone is giving the blessing, in this case her god. Openly giving props to invisible people will always lead to awkward moments.
Some do, I've definitely heard such sentiments. Generally though, I don't fear for my life when surrounded by theists, so I would say that most don't. That wasn't the point of my statement though. What I was trying to point out was that the logic that I use to disregard a religion exists with or without me. An atheist doesn't have a belief to espouse, just hundreds to tear down... all with the basic question, "Where is your god?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando Rosæ
It is entirely rational for someone to logically work their way to the presumption that a god does exist. Some would say that Descartes did this quite well in his own work. However, when accounting for specific religious ideologies and literal accounts within theistic literature... it all starts to fall apart rather quickly.
AJ,
I really appreciate intellectually mature style of your arguments. You have not taken any pot shots or made snide remarks by calling people crazy or cuckoo or troll. I'm really saddened by the fact that there are people out there that want others dead for the simple reason that they happen to have a different of opinion. I think that theists have difficulty differentiating between true atheists and haters. The way I see it, one can not hate something that they don't believe in or is nonsensical. I don't understand when people get angry or hateful while arguing that their point of view is privileged with "rationality or logic." Emotion plays no part in rationality or logic. Then they resort to name calling and questioning someones sanity or motives.
You present yourself as a someone who is well informed on many topics. I'm confident that you know this already but I'll say it anyway, you have control of your thoughts and feelings. What the older woman said to you is only awkward if you allow it to be. She also could have meant that she was just an a "thankful state" whoever or whatever she was thankful to is on her. But then again you were there and I wasn't so, if that was your interpretation of the incident, then that's really all we can go by.
I don't see it as a vicious cycle. I see good in having personal guidelines to our conduct. It forces us to periodically check ourselves and whether we are living withing those guidelines or need to make adjustments to either our conduct or our guidelines. The problem I see is when one group of people starts holding another group to the guidelines they had originally set for ourselves. That is to say, I hold belief X and anyone who doesn't agree with belief X is subject to the penalties I had originally set for people who believe in belief X.
I agree, no one can prove physically that Jesus rose from the grave anymore than man can prove that we have a spirit or a consciousness or that we love. We can only show its effects. For better or worse, we all make decisions based on partial information. Some require more concrete information and less circumstantial or vice-versa in order to come to a conclusion. Again I really appreciate your argument I wish more people would take the time to present their thoughts the way you have.
You have my respect.-- Orlando
And that is hitting the nail directly on the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Camacho
The key fact of life is that evolution and moving forward is made possible by simple 1 word questions such as "WHY?" "Where?" "How?" "was?"
"where did man come from?" "were the events told in the bible true?" "how did the earth come about?"
every question leads to an answer which leads to another question about the answer which pulls us back farther in time to the very beggining or pushes us forward to find out why the current answer is what it is.
science says life was created from cells, micro organisms, atoms etc. but where did they come from, where did what they are made of come from and so on. we can keep asking questions that make us go backwards untill we either have a answer or have a question that CANT BE ANSWERED.
though some people dont agree with religion where some people do, so what?
hypotheticaly speaking, If the rapture does come, those who believe are safe. If not then your screwd, but if nothing ever happens, who cares? you lived a good life, did good things, hopefully made a difference in the lives of others, and were realtively happy with your life.
guess the base of my idea is: "When you were born, everyone around you was smiling while you were the one crying. Live a life so worth while with no regrets, that when you die, everyone around you will be crying but you will be the one who is smiling."
^^ hell yeah. Also most of these religions ARE built on FEAR. "Don't do that or you're gonna come back as a cockroach" or "go to hell!" But, "Do do this, and enlightenment is yours" or " you'll get in to heaven-the ultimate paradise." That's BS. I don't rape, beat, steal, murder, because I'm not a Scumbag, not because I'm afraid to go to hell. Nobody should live with any fear in there heart. Especially for something imaginary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Elliott
1 of the reasons that religion is so easy to ? is that individuals dont represent ideas, they represent themselves. most religions have had followers that did some F'd up Sh!+, and they did it in the name of their religion. So jus shows that nothing is perfect, even though religion would have us believe perfection is possible. attainable if you follow some rules.
Believe whatever u want if it makes u happy. worship the Kebbler Elves, or Godzilla. Just dont tell me I'm wrong for not having a god. I've got role models that i look up to, and i can communicate with them anytime. they are people, they are flawed. And they are awesome. And that works for me.
Peace and Happy Birthday!
Way to tiptoe. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Elliott
I can only say what I have experienced in my own life and the lives of my closest friends and family. I have have found that the message of Jesus the Christ is the absolute truth. I know im probably going to get slammed for this but I dont care. I have found this not by excepting what was passed down to me, but by searching and having my eyes opened to the truth. Repent of your sin and believe.
Am I the only one that finds it interesting that a thread debating religion was started by the words of one man?
I feel like if more people listened to this everyone would be much more relaxed human beings.
I feel like if more people listened to this we would flood the internet with 11 page threads :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG
Kinda off topic but i would really like to see ''daft punk'' live.
They don't even play live instruments live.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Z.
Yeah i figure its just a dj with some animations on a screen but i would still love to see them live dont know when they come to L.A. though or anywhere near here.