I mis read your post. I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Gates
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I mis read your post. I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Gates
One gym I train at is big about "being street ready" and one of the kids there tries to crack my HG/Lockdown by applying the can opener in combination with knee on sternum (forcing a neck crank tap). I don't think we should do it to girls or new kids right away, but as they get more comfortable with the sport it would be good to make sure everyone knows how to use and defend it.Quote:
Which is why you need to start dealing with these types of tactics at the gym level. Making techniques illegal in the gym such as the can openers, leg locks, twisters, etc. will ulitmately stunt the growth of the sport and the individual students development. However these must be practiced with safe trustworthy training partners and under proper guidance and supervision.
I can see where C. Gracie is coming from. There's definitely a lot of debate for and against his decisions. It's a sticky situation for sure.
I checked w/the dudes at my gym after the responses to this thread (I'm the one who started it) and it's pretty much a gym by gym thing when it comes to sparring w/cranks and leglocks. The rules in our in-house matches has always been they're legal for adults at any level and it's more or less a trust thing between opponents to a) know when to tap or open legs up and b) not be an asshole and over-do anything.
I think the best thing would be to check w/whoever you're sparring w/before slapping hands if you're rolling somewhere new. At the very least, both guys will have some idea of what's up if the subject of neckcranks + heel hooks comes up. First time I had it applied to me as a white belt, I had no idea what was happening and didn't know to open my legs... thought guy was gonna break my neck b4 I tapped.
Stew showed the the can opener last night and I can see why people don't like it. I personally don;t mind if guys put it on me, as long as they let up if I tap or whatever. I think keeping it real is best, and some guys are going to use that shit on you whether you want them to or not, especially against a stranger or whatever.
It hurts though, no doubt about that.
I agree with Zog, kinda. Deal with it on the gym level, just with some tighter reins. This is what I tell our peeps: It is most likely not allowed as a submission in any event that we will encounter, so making it your bread and butter way to pass at the expense of other passes might not be in your best interest. If you use it as a submission, it ain't really that cool in our gym. If you use is with "control" to get the legs open then pass it is cool. If you just go 100% power and crank it on a guy that doesn't realize what to do you could really injure your "training partner". If you apply it slowy up to about 40% you give your "partner" time to figure it out, if he doesn't figure it out that doesn't give you permission to increase to 100%, give it up at 40% and work a different pass. I feel the same about heal hooks and twister. I get them locked at about 5-10% power on a regular basis(knowing dam well that I can crank to 100% at any time if I so choose) then I just hold the sub at 5-10%( the control portion is held near 100%, just not the actual sub) for how ever long it takes for them to escape, or if I have the cotrol just right they just give up and tap because there is no way out, not because they were in danger of injury. If I get the knee knot locked up with a heel hook held with zero twisting pressure, good luck getting out. If they give up purely cause resiting is futile, and after several attemps to escape realize I have them dead to rights, then I know my technique is spot on. As with most things it is learning vs ego!!
while i do need to work on my defense to the move, i really fucking hate it simply because it has so much potential to injure your training partner with so little effort. we all want to keep training and something like a few seconds of a rough can opener can take you off the mat for weeks or even cause permanent damage. i think if you are going to work with it you should be well experienced and warn your partners, i feel the same about anything that might twist a knee.
i'm suffering from a can opener injury right now and it's not the first time. it does serve me right since i should have reacted better but the problem is in the heat of the roll it just doesn't seem all that bad, then the next day your fucking crippled and all your thoughts of well i should have done this or that don't matter. but i'll try to use my current frustration to drill the defense into my head when i get back on the mat again.
I kinda think like this..if it sucks then open your guard, or else its your fault it sucks. Spiking somebody with your elbow from mount to open them up sucks too, but guess what its your decision on weather it continues, give me what i want and it stops instantly. I dont mind people doing this kind of stuff because if i dont like it i can give up position or tap.
I personally think the move is fine and while i can uderstand that there are guys that are just too rough, they are probly guys you dont want to roll with at all. if they throw on the can opener 100% right from the start then chances re they do the same going for chokes and armbars. when doing jiu jittsu theres that faith you have to have in your opponent to not stuff you up for life.
in saying that, can opener can come on pretty quickly so when someone learns it they should be told to put it on very slowly. I dont use it myself but ive had it applied to me, ive found as long as you keep your legs tight and high when you open them it shouldnt give the opponent too big of an advantage.
the first place i trained at had rules like dont go too far cos there is always the next round, what goes around comes around and its your own fault (of course thats unless someon does smash it) pretty much if you go too hard when you catch someone in a sub, next time youre in a sub dont expect them to be nice. and its your own fault means if you get knocked out or arm snapped then its probly cos you tapped too late, dont have an ego and think that you can pull out of everything, accept that they have something and get ready to fight again. the rules sound kind of harsh, but it really worked, everyone gave each other enough time to tap, and no one ever really got angry at someone else because they accepted that it was their fault they got caught in a submission and it wasnt the other guy that had to get better, it was all about improving themselves.
The escape is so basic you'll freak. Shrimp escape to on side or another. It's that simple. You'll never get caught ever again. Of course they'll try to darce you right after, but then lay flat on the mat and block his/her oncoming attempt at mount. When they try to mount, TRex and shrimp away with a shin shield to block him. They'll want to heel hook, so be prepared to swivel out and go to butterfly position.