Denny Prokopos vs AJ Agazarm IBJJF American Nationals 2013

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

No, oddly, that is correct. I mentioned it in the post above, but it happened to notables such as Rafael Mendes and Cobrinha within the past year. In ADCC if a submission goes out of bounds they restart in the same spot but in IBJJF they stand you up--which is odd considering they don't restart you standing up if you go out of bounds during a regular scramble or positional change.

They typically will let you have the same grips and positions and restart you in the middle. But if it's a submission then the person with the sub attempt gets 2 points and they stand you up. If the person trapped in the submission flees the mat intentionally or in a manner not in line with the normal escape for that submission then they get DQ'd on the spot.

This issue caused a lot of controversy when Gui Mendes faces Samuel Braga for the Gold a few years back. Gui Mendes had a toe hold near the border, and Samuel Braga escaped/rolled for the back. It's hard to tell. But they gave Gui the 2 points and it cost Braga the match. Braga argued that he wasn't trying to escape the submission, just that he was trying to attack the back. Braga shoved Gui as Gui celebrated the win and was denied the Silver medal.

Denny looked awesome and I did think in this case AJ was stalling it out a bit. He usually pushes the pace so I was a little bit surprised by this.

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Ah thanks Mike!

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

I mean the best talent is there right now at least. There just needs to be an organization in the U.S. that can find a way to attract the bigger names. I think it will happen too. It's not like all these top IBJJF competitors just all love the organization. Abu Dhabi Pro Cup is a good competitor but it's overseas.

Like the reaping rules? Especially for no-gi? I don't think of any top competitors that aren't frustrated by that rule. For now you just have to be able to adapt. Watch people lile Rafa Mendes or Ryan Hall do IBJJF and they never reaps or does anything illegal but in ADCC they reap the leg hard and goes for all sorts of gnarly leglock positions.

There just needs to be another org.

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It's not exactly true that they don't love the Ibjjf. A lot of these guys are under instructors tied to the Ibjjf. If their instructor is being belted through the Ibjjf, then that's the organization they need to be in front of to recieve the highest rank and accolades in their organization. The reason the Ibjjf has so much power is because they control the highest ranked guys. So all the guys under them are also just as tied unless they leave that particular association to join one that doesn't have ties to the Ibjjf. Most aren't going to do that.

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Originally Posted by sean applegate

It's not exactly true that they don't love the Ibjjf. A lot of these guys are under instructors tied to the Ibjjf. If their instructor is being belted through the Ibjjf, then that's the organization they need to be in front of to recieve the highest rank and accolades in their organization. The reason the Ibjjf has so much power is because they control the highest ranked guys. So all the guys under them are also just as tied unless they leave that particular association to join one that doesn't have ties to the Ibjjf. Most aren't going to do that.

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For sure that's true too, but I think there's a lot of potential over the next few years for other organizations to come on the scene and I don't think that the IBJJF has as much of a stranglehold on the comp circuit as it may think it does. A lot of competitors prefer the treatment and even financial compensation they get in other organizations, and if something good comes along, the tides could turn.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

For sure that's true too, but I think there's a lot of potential over the next few years for other organizations to come on the scene and I don't think that the IBJJF has as much of a stranglehold on the comp circuit as it may think it does. A lot of competitors prefer the treatment and even financial compensation they get in other organizations, and if something good comes along, the tides could turn.

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Very true. I like the idea of a sub only tournament series as big as the Ibjjf. The only problem is how strong the Ibjjf is with the brazilians. As more and more non Ibjjf associations start popping up, we will see more people at the non Ibjjf tourneys. For now we just have to play the waiting game. None of these old school guys are going to leave the Ibjjf, because nobody wants to have their rank cut off.

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Originally Posted by Slick Rick

As for stopping you mid-guillotine... very disheartening because you were about to get that for sure. Then to top it off by giving him 2 after the reset, that's just wrong.

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Denny was awarded two points at the reset. While they were in the yellow zone the rules require the action to continue. When AJ walked around so his feet went outside of the yellow zone, he triggered the rule that requires a standing reset with two points going to the person attempting the submission. The relevant clause of the rules is in 1.3.7 of the IBJJF Rule Book.

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Originally Posted by scottross

Denny was awarded two points at the reset. While they were in the yellow zone the rules require the action to continue. When AJ walked around so his feet went outside of the yellow zone, he triggered the rule that requires a standing reset with two points going to the person attempting the submission.

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Like I said. Playing the rules. Felipe Costa does a great breakdown/ video interpretation of the rules and strategy. Http://youtu.be/ok2DWU0ZGg0

A must watch for anyone who wants to do the IBJJF.

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Originally Posted by Compella

Fuck IBJJF, NAGA all day. All subs legal, points for sub attempts; had it been those rules Denny would've won. The fighter is rewarded for going for the finish, as it should be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTOKJTRHMdw

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I'm with Compella on this one. As far as points go, NAGA has the best scoring system for our style of jiu-jitsu and they don't have any protectionist rules that favor one style over another.

Good match. No matter what tournament, you're gonna have competitors playing to the rules to win. The path of least resistance.

I didn't understand the points off the 2nd guilly attempt. Not the one that went out of bounds but after that one.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

There were not questionable points. I wanted to see Denny win, and Denny had 2 very tight submissions locked up.

You can complain about the rules and the point system, but not the refs. They literally couldn't give less of a shit. They work long ass days for little money and barely have enough time to scarf down some lunch. They make mistakes sometimes, and even then, they didn't make any mistakes here.

I think the rules should be different, but the ref interpreted them and applied them basically to the letter. The ref didn't fuck anyone over, it was just shit luck that the guillotine happened so close to out of bounds.

That's another big problem with our sport. The out of bounds area is so huge. It should be a much thinner line.

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Yeah your rules explanation cleared that up. It is what it is. Unfortunate.

Guess for most of us its no big deal to boycott IBJJF but guys like denny have to go where they feel the best competitors are.

Personally I would get dq'ed immediately under whitebelt rules. Dont have time to memorize and internalize such a large rule set, im still trying to learn jiujitsu.