nogi...no evidence so far!

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Originally Posted by Liquidrob

I usually agree with you Mike, but I think it's pretty clear Rafa plays 2 different games, IMO of course

In the Gi he is primarily De L Riva/Berimbolo and in No Gi he is Inverted De La Riva (Spiral)/KOD, he attacks the back but with different bottom games to get there IMO. Like you said in No Gi he goes front headlock, anacondas, etc...which he doesnt use much in the Gi plus he favors arm drags No Gi also

Marcelo is like, I'm playing butterfly, Single X and X no matter what where as Rafa favors DLR in the GI and IDLR No Gi, plus he teaches Spider and Lasso where Marcelo wont even touch it

Maybe we're saying the same thing, but at this point like you said before the whole Gi/No Gi thing is kind of silly, all the top guys practice both

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I think we pretty much are actually in agreement. I guess I'm thinking broad spectrum that DLR and RDLR are kind of 2 sides of the same coin. Rafa went RDLR to KOD to Rader's back at the 2011 Worlds for example. I just had that in my head but yes you're right he does say he always tries DLR first in the gi.

One thing interesting I have noticed is that no-gi he teaches a ton of kneeling passes Leo Vieira style but if you watch his rolling footage or ADCC matches he almost always passes standing unless he's front rolling through half guard with a kimura or front headlock.

I think we agree more than disagree. I forgot about the lasso and spider stuff since he doesn't play it as often in competition.

I wonder how many times I have read this debate before, and how many times I shall do it again.

Neither the chicken or the egg came first. It was aliens.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

I wonder how many times I have read this debate before, and how many times I shall do it again.

Neither the chicken or the egg came first. It was aliens.

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+1

It comes down to the grips for me. The gi grips are a great equalizer of power and athleticism. They really slow the game down. Nogi is a much a more explosive and faster paced game. The pressure, grips, and speed of the games are just different in my opinion.

Definitely, the most important thing to learn early on is how to slow the game down. One argument is to learn gi early on, which is cool. Nothing wrong with that.

Another argument is to force a fundamentals class only for beginners for the first 3 months. In this fundamentals class, all you'd be able to do is rep techniqie(arm bars, side control escape or position dominance, etc). This will form the base. Now, if the instructor is not knowledgable in these areas, it could be a problem, but in limiting the intake to just this sort of learning, everyone will benefit. Maybe throw in a couple lights rolls here and there, but drilling at varying degrees of effort are equally as important.

Now here's something to dwell on. Does Rafa teach nogi only because he has to? No, he genuinely loves nogi. He loves how it's a different game focused on speed and explosiveness. If you don't understand how sweat can help in rolling and escaping a technique, you will when training nogi. Much of his gi game is nogi(minus the grips). He's looking to pass and take that neck or armlock. If the foots there, take it. This is pretty much what nogi is too, except we have an entire system of attacks from our back, over and above just sweep to triangle combos.

The world champions in nogi are the world champions in gi, for now. Time will change things as the nogi culture and influence grows. Some don't want this, however, as it'll destroy tradition. But you will see world champions in the gi training 2 and 3 times daily, and sometimes on weekends. The nogi world champions are those same gi champions with the same work ethic. It's a way of life to be world champion.

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Originally Posted by Slick Rick

The world champions in nogi are the world champions in gi, for now. Time will change things as the nogi culture and influence grows. Some don't want this, however, as it'll destroy tradition. But you will see world champions in the gi training 2 and 3 times daily, and sometimes on weekends. The nogi world champions are those same gi champions with the same work ethic. It's a way of life to be world champion.

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This is where I get confused. I agree with everything except the 2nd sentence. I have trained a lot and have visited a ton of academies all over the place and I've never met anyone that thought some tradition would be destroyed if more people did no-gi. No-gi has already expanded and is always growing and no one is upset about it. I always hear that people are upset about it and don't want it to happen but I never actually see these people or even hear who they are.

The IBJJF added no-gi Worlds and Pans in 2007 because they knew people were taking no-gi very seriously and they wanted to give people an opportunity to have prestigious no-gi events where you didn't have to qualify or be invited like ADCC. The World Jiu Jitsu Expo next month is all no-gi except for 1 match. There's like 5 no-gi matches there.

It's getting harder and harder to find people that only train in the gi. If anything I think more people are embracing no-gi training.

Rick, your point about Rafa's gi game being like his no gi game minus the grips doesnt make sense, if you take it tothat level you can say that about anyone

Rafa in DLR uses the belt grip, that's a huge part of his berimbolo game

The simplest way to get my point about Rafa's game would be to answer this question

If Rafa pulls guard in the gi what will he play first? And why

Now if he pulls guard in No Gi what game will be play?

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

This is where I get confused. I agree with everything except the 2nd sentence. I have trained a lot and have visited a ton of academies all over the place and I've never met anyone that thought some tradition would be destroyed if more people did no-gi. No-gi has already expanded and is always growing and no one is upset about it. I always hear that people are upset about it and don't want it to happen but I never actually see these people or even hear who they are.

The IBJJF added no-gi Worlds and Pans in 2007 because they knew people were taking no-gi very seriously and they wanted to give people an opportunity to have prestigious no-gi events where you didn't have to qualify or be invited like ADCC. The World Jiu Jitsu Expo next month is all no-gi except for 1 match. There's like 5 no-gi matches there.

It's getting harder and harder to find people that only train in the gi. If anything I think more people are embracing no-gi training.

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Don't get confused. Just sit back and dwell. Think about who's in charge at the highest levels of tournaments. If BJJ, what locks are allowed? If submission grappling, what locks are allowed. Those are the two major forces.

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Originally Posted by Liquidrob

Rick, your point about Rafa's gi game being like his no gi game minus the grips doesnt make sense, if you take it tothat level you can say that about anyone

Rafa in DLR uses the belt grip, that's a huge part of his berimbolo game

The simplest way to get my point about Rafa's game would be to answer this question

If Rafa pulls guard in the gi what will he play first? And why

Now if he pulls guard in No Gi what game will be play?

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It's already been stated by someone before in this thread, but 'ill reiterate, if gi you go DLR because of the grip allowance. If nogi, DLR still possible, but go RDLR, because no grip allowance. Same game and techniques(slight alter), but strategy and game is almost the same. I've rolled with Rafa in both scenarios as I can assure you this.

Ok, thanks, so his game is different and it's based on grips, you agree