Ryan Hall, Heel Hooks, TUF 22

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Originally Posted by Liquidrob

Ken would have whooped your ass

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That was childish. Stick to the subject. In UFC 1, he fell straight to his back against Pat Smith. And his hip and leg control was trash. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CrAgl6BjAk ) He only got the sub because Pat Smith was clueless. Royce wasn't.

There's a reason Royce popped right up over top of him. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Havd2l4Z8ws )

Herzog makes it a point to explain how that was old school stuff that doesn't work in the modern era. I'm no 3 year brown belt, but I know enough to have popped up on Shammy and mounted him just like Royce did. Whether or not Ken would whoop my ass before or after is irrelevant.

Don't be so sensitive

Anyway, to think you would have had the balance and postioning of a life long BJJ guy is silly

Ken fell back and Royce came up,maybe you would have even done that, but Ken went for the foot on your hip and tried to get him back into leg position, he would have went right through you IMO

Also, people bring up the first Royce vs Ken fight amd think that's Kens game and he never got better which is false

Ken never was a technical beast, but when he fought Royce that was his 2nd MMA fight and 5th overall, but the kicker is it was only like 3 months the most from his 1st Pancrace match

His first Pancrase fight was Sept 21st, 1993, he fought Pat Smith and Royce in the UFC on November 12th 1993

To use that fight as a gauge for how old school guys grappled is silly, they evolved pretty quickly after that, look at Franks match posted against Hendo, that was in 1997 and he just started training in 1994

Kens training prior to the first Royce fight was pro wrestling style works and training with the Pancrase guys, the rules also were different and falling back for a lef was not as bad in Pancrase compared to the No Rules UFC format, he became better after the first UFC

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

Done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLjGDnDUD2I

Also I know you follow gi jiu jitsu as well. So I don't want to take things too far out there, but I think in a way this idea of the traditional position over submission is going away a bit in the gi as well. At least for right now. I know that no one here cares about the gi but if you want to PM me I'd be more than happy to talk about it. The basic idea is the same.

Overall I think it's a good thing that the word position in "position over submission" is starting to take on a broader meaning. It used to be seen heavily as the mount or the back for example. But now I think many people would say that a kimura grip is a dominant position. Same goes for grapevined legs for the truck, the seatbelt, and lots of other things. I would even say that good position is just an idea. butterfly guard with a 2-on-1 is a dominant position if you have them out of position. Too many people hear "position over submission" and limit it into thinking they need to be passed the guard with some type of pin or control.

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Those are some good thoughts Mike, I think someone on another board made a good point about the Mendes brothers getting to the dominant grips instead of just the old "position over submission " saying

There use of the belt grip from de la riva to get to the berimbolo game, the kimura grip they like, Galvao, Hall also

I think the Mended brothers and the Galvao/ATOS crew have really used that theory a lot

Jesus I've seen armchair quarterbacking on MMA figths, saying what the fighters could've done better or worse. But this is the first time I've ever seen a white belt talk about a fight in 1993 and say that they could've gone in there and done better. And then double down when they get called on that silly ass remark.

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Originally Posted by Liquidrob

Don't be so sensitive

Anyway, to think you would have had the balance and postioning of a life long BJJ guy is silly

Ken fell back and Royce came up,maybe you would have even done that, but Ken went for the foot on your hip and tried to get him back into leg position, he would have went right through you IMO

Also, people bring up the first Royce vs Ken fight amd think that's Kens game and he never got better which is false

Ken never was a technical beast, but when he fought Royce that was his 2nd MMA fight and 5th overall, but the kicker is it was only like 3 months the most from his 1st Pancrace match

His first Pancrase fight was Sept 21st, 1993, he fought Pat Smith and Royce in the UFC on November 12th 1993

To use that fight as a gauge for how old school guys grappled is silly, they evolved pretty quickly after that, look at Franks match posted against Hendo, that was in 1997 and he just started training in 1994

Kens training prior to the first Royce fight was pro wrestling style works and training with the Pancrase guys, the rules also were different and falling back for a leg was not as bad in Pancrase compared to the No Rules UFC format, he became better after the first UFC

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Yeah totally. Ken learned from pro wrestlers in Japan. He was on a podcast recently saying how he got his arm fucked up the first time he rolled because he didn't know that he could tap out. No one even explained to him that was a thing.

And the stuff about Ken never being a super technical guy is true. Even he was saying that he was a limb twister and that's about it. I said that when everyone was saying his fight with Kimbo was a fix because of that RNC. Ken Shamrock has not finished a RNC since gloves were introduced into MMA, and not even any leg lock victories since 1996.

He was able to do well with leg locks in the early days of MMA, but wasn't quite as evolved with the leg game as some of his peers. I think Frank Shamrock, Bas Rutten, Masakatsu Funaki, and Minoru Suzuki all had better leg locks. Then you had the generation right after those guys of some Shooto guys with great leg locks like Genki Sudo, Rumina Sato. Obviously Imanari and Shinya Aoki.

Japanese fighters were really good with leg locks since before MMA.

Rumina Sato is in my top 5 fighters of all time

Beast

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Originally Posted by Liquidrob

Rumina Sato is in my top 5 fighters of all time

Beast

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He's so awesome. Is he still doing anything?


Back to Ryan hall. Long story short is I think he will do very good. He's a beast and is always training boxing, muay thai, wrestling and judo. He's training with the best at Tristar and has a really great mind for how to train and how to do this MMA thing the right way. It will be fun when he shows some of his jiu jitsu top game that people haven't seen as much.

Last thing I seen about Sato was he did some Gi comps and lost, I think he was competing at blue belt or something

Yeah, Hall should do well, he is a student of the game, I think he is trying to get the "leg lock guy" label and than will show more, I think this is a good strategy for the show, TUF will not have a guy who can defend his leg attack have and gets him quick wins and moves to three next round

He knows he will have to show a more well rounded game and change it up against different guys in the future

Sorry, typos everywhere

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Originally Posted by Liquidrob

Last thing I seen about Sato was he did some Gi comps and lost, I think he was competing at blue belt or something

Yeah, Hall should do well, he is a student of the game, I think he is trying to get the "leg lock guy" label and than will show more, I think this is a good strategy for the show, TUF will not have a guy who can defend his leg attack have and gets him quick wins and moves to three next round

He knows he will have to show a more well rounded game and change it up against different guys in the future

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That's exactly right. His pro MMA wins have usually been by others subs or TKOs, but he was saying that when having to fight so many times in a 6 weeks filing schedule in that house that he was worried about getting injured and being unable to continue if he fought a more typical style. So he just thought that being confident enough at sliding in on the legs would make it so that if he could just avoid a knockout blow on the way in, that he would be good enough from a leg entanglement to finish anyone in the house. Just thought it would be a good strategy to make it through the tournament as fast as possible.

https://youtu.be/g7sg-OhHLqM

This thread made me look up old highlights, still the GOAR armbar