The Leg Lock Debate (Video)

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Originally Posted by J Grooms

Yes I love neck cranks! Lou Thesz was pretty overrated as far as shooters go. He learned some holds in the carnivals, but he was mainly a show wrestler. I'm pretty sure Gene Lebell also learned under Karl Gotch.

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Yes, Gene LeBell learned from many Catch wrestlers. Read below to find out how. Also the famous Main St. Boxing
gym was near the Olympic Auditorium and Gene LeBell would train there too. LeBell trained in Judo, Boxing, Karate,
Catch Wrestling and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. LeBell knows all those Akido wrist locks too. You do know what Gene LeBell
did to Steven Seagull, right?

Gene LeBell started young in the world of fighting. Gene's mother, Aileen Eaton, owned and operated the Olympic Auditorium. The Olympic was built in 1927 for the Olympic Games in 1932. It has housed some of the greatest boxers and wrestlers of all time - Muhammad Ali, Jerry Quarry, Gorgeous George, Jimmy Londos, John "The Golden Greek" Tolos, Sugar Ray Robinson, Andre the Giant, Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Henry Armstrong, Gene Fullmer, Emile Griffith, Floyd Patterson, Lauro Salas, Ike Williams, Mando Ramos, Danny Lopez, Carlos Palomino, Jimmy Carter, Art Aragon, Sugar Ramos, Carlos Ortiz, Willy Pep, Lou Thesz, and a thousand more - and Gene was warming up the mat with them as early as age 6. One wrestler in particular, Ed "Strangler" Lewis, started Gene off in the world of grappling (not wrestling, wrestling has different rules). Ed explained that with grappling you could do just about anything to your opponent. You could hit the guy, do heel locks, ankle locks, armbars, back locks, neck locks, tweak the nose or choke him out.

Yes I'm aware of Genes and Seagul lol... I was just saying that Lou Thesz ia not a great representative of catch wrestling.

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Originally Posted by J Grooms

Yes I'm aware of Genes and Seagul lol... I was just saying that Lou Thesz ia not a great representative of catch wrestling.

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What about Tony Cecchine and the ever lovable Matt Furey? LOL!
Matt Furey went to Gokor's just one time. He didn't roll.
They said he made a lot of money from his Catch Wrestling
DVDs as well as Tony Cecchine.

What is it you have so against Lou Thez. I think you are confused on him.
Gene LeBell personally told me that he saw Lou Thez line up the best
college Olympic wrestlers in the world and beat everyone of them one
after the other in real wrestling matches. Does that sound like a show
wrestler to you. I think sometime we hear things and it gets stuck in
our heads. I seen Gene LeBell in action. The man is dangerous. Just
ask Eric Paulson, Chuck Norris and many other people who know.

Oh, Gene LeBell train for over 12 years or so with J.J. Machado. J.J. Machado
was surprised that Gene LeBell already knew BJJ before training with the Machados.
J.J. Machado told me personally that he would not want to get Gene LeBell mad.
This coming from J.J. Machado himself. Gene LeBell taught the Machados the
lock down and that's where Eddie Bravo got the lock down.

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Originally Posted by 10th Planet Riverside, Ca

Oh, Gene LeBell train for over 12 years or so with J.J. Machado. J.J. Machado
was surprised that Gene LeBell already knew BJJ before training with the Machados.
J.J. Machado told me personally that he would not want to get Gene LeBell mad.
This coming from J.J. Machado himself. Gene LeBell taught the Machados the
lock down and that's where Eddie Bravo got the lock down.

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It's a small world.

holy fuck i went to the local gym in my hometown for a drop in over the xmas break and got shit all over for using a rolling toe hold to pass to the back (i never attempted to finish it at all), and for trapping the leg from (being in) open guard across my body to do the faux anklelock pass., leg locks are gnarly, fun, super efficient, and a huge part of my game.

if you don't wanna tap to the leg lock and you want to tear up your mensicus and acl that's not my problem, just tap fool. i could just as easily break your arm or your shoulder doing a double wrist lock or straight armlock just as easily or maybe more easily than i could do any permanent damage to you with a kneebar, power achilles, or straight ankle lock.

that being said, heel hooks seem pretty ruthless and dangerous to train with at lowish levels at least. heel hooks scare the shit out of me, even the position without cranking is terribly uncomfortable i can almost feel my joint tearing apart as its applied.

sorry not the rolling toe hold, i don't twist the foot, i get my forearm under the ankle and press it forward, think this is what hertz was referring to with the "Hand Pressing Foot Flex"

i only do straight leg locks, rotational ones are spooky, i'm a newb whitebelt poser bish, i don't wanna hurt anyone.

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Originally Posted by Beefheart

holy fuck i went to the local gym in my hometown for a drop in over the xmas break and got shit all over for using a rolling toe hold to pass to the back (i never attempted to finish it at all), and for trapping the leg from (being in) open guard across my body to do the faux anklelock pass., leg locks are gnarly, fun, super efficient, and a huge part of my game.

if you don't wanna tap to the leg lock and you want to tear up your mensicus and acl that's not my problem, just tap fool. i could just as easily break your arm or your shoulder doing a double wrist lock or straight armlock just as easily or maybe more easily than i could do any permanent damage to you with a kneebar, power achilles, or straight ankle lock.

that being said, heel hooks seem pretty ruthless and dangerous to train with at lowish levels at least. heel hooks scare the shit out of me, even the position without cranking is terribly uncomfortable i can almost feel my joint tearing apart as its applied.

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Yeah at my gym for whites/blues I want them focusing on the positions of control and transitions of entry into those positions. The white belts are only allowed to apply straight leg locks: Knee bars, knee crushes, straight ankle lockes, straight foot flexes while rolling. I always allow them the ability to work rotation leg locks while repping technique, just not during rolling. By the time they hit blue belt they'll have an appreation for the potential damage it can create if your traning partner does something stupid in an attempt to escape, they'll have the where with all to release the sub, while mantaining solid position.

this is honestly the first time i've heard the straight vs rotational distinction in leg locks and it's so dope and this leglock discourse has already started to change the way i think about leg locks.,

leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock

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Originally Posted by Beefheart

this is honestly the first time i've heard the straight vs rotational distinction in leg locks and it's so dope and this leglock discourse has already started to change the way i think about leg locks.,

leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock leg lock

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Well, then this will help you get healthy dose for today.

Another benefit of limiting a beginner's lower body submissions to just straight leg locks is that Straight leg locks generally require a higher level of control (more stretch/squeeze in the knees depending on the position)than rotational locks. Straight leg subs like straight ankle locks, and knee bars require more core strength (arching the hips, which require an anchor held by the squeeze or the stretch) to execute. So by the time they can even use rotation locks while rolling(Blue Belt) they will have had a healthy dose of experience and time in on those lower body positions of control.