nogi...no evidence so far!

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Originally Posted by Liquidrob

Ok, thanks, so his game is different and it's based on grips, you agree

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Gonna quote what I wrote the in first post:
"Much of his gi game is nogi(minus the grips)."

I didn't mean to mislead you.

How could it be when he prefers one guard in the gi and another no gi?

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Originally Posted by Liquidrob

How could it be when he prefers one guard in the gi and another no gi?

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Grips, otherwise he'd go DLR all the time. Too easy to pass without grips, so you go RDLR.

Powerful slick rick. The game is different. There hasn't been enough time for the nogi specific guys to get to the top. It just takes time. The guys at the top that train GI and nogi will talk about how different it is. If training the GI made you better at nogi, and nogi training didn't mean anything, then why in the world do all these guys spend so much time training nogi? Don't make assumptions. Ask people that know. I really don't see how people can argue with rick about rafas game. When you don't train with Rafa, and rick not only trains with him, but is a student of his. Jeez.

Besides Rafa himself on video saying he plays a different game between Gi and No Gi I guess Rick is right...

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Originally Posted by Slick Rick

Don't get confused. Just sit back and dwell. Think about who's in charge at the highest levels of tournaments. If BJJ, what locks are allowed? If submission grappling, what locks are allowed. Those are the two major forces.

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Well the biggest difference is easily heel hooks. They aren't legal even in no-gi at any belt level in IBJJF. They are however legal in almost every other grappling organization. ADCC, Grappler's Quest, NAGA, Gracie Nationals, etc. Almost every other technique is legal in both the gi and no-gi. With electric chairs and banana splits, there's no express rule against those in the IBJJF (which has the same rules for gi and no-gi), but you may have confused ref that doesn't understand what they are and they may DQ you. Their refs in general are improving every year. They now allow calf slicers and bicep slicers. Even ADCC has a few restricted techniques. In ADCC you cannot do a full nelson of all things, or a Bas Rutten style crucifix.

We really need to stop feeding the trolls.

I'm gonna add this to my topic of futile debates. Alongside politics and religion..

Is this debate political? Kevin certainly made a mass generalization with his '10p4l kids' comment. 'Kids' is gonna come off as derogatory regardless when you are talking to grown men/women paying bills. But, I understand and completely empathize with the statement. I have seen many hinder their progression by being stubborn. Refusing to dawn a gi, when the best instruction/competition in the area is gi. They destroy beginner and intermediate nogi comps, then don't even register how far they are from the elite level. Many of us have to clean up the damage they have done to 10p's reputation and credibility. Then there's the people that actually get it. They love it and genuinely believe in it.

Jj is a culture/lifestyle. It quickly becomes more than a hobby and starts to resonate, even dictate (for the competitors), every other part of your life. Much like musicians, b-boys, skaters, painters or any other serious artist, you begin to eat, breathe, and sleep your craft. You align yourself with others who do the same and a subculture develops. This is where the magic happens. Passion knows no bounds. Can we predict the future of no i from the current grappling climate? Fuck no. Can we learn from those who are currently excelling? Of course.

The crazy part to me is, when it comes to the highest level, they're all pretty much right. Imho. The best will always tell you that super solid fundamentals ie-base, control, timing- will be you're greatest assets as a grappler. This is undeniably true, gi or nogi. Eddie just put one of those under the microscope and found fundamental differences in one of those aspects. Control. It is why wrestlers can quickly adapt to nogi and why we need to adapt/assimilate to wrestlers.

In short, yes, there will always be a question on the best way to train, other than HARD. Other than that most of us can just sit back(cue Micheal Jackson popcorn gif), train, learn, and enjoy the ride. The art of killing your fellow man will always be enticing. I think it has to do with sex somehow. But what doesn't..?

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Originally Posted by kevinculp

I've yet to see a reason for an anti gi argument when talking about just jiu jitsu. The guys who are the best in gi are also the best in nogi. Even young gi guys like Ciao, Keenan and the Mendes brothers dominate both.just like the legends did like Speedy and Jon Jac did in the early days. It looks to me if you're great in a gi you're great out of it too. In my opinion the 10p4life kids aren't great because they avoid a gi. You're great because of your passion and innovation!

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LOL'd at Jon Joc

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Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

If there were 5,000 jiu jitsu schools that only focused on nogi jiu jitsu ADCC would look alot different. I'm talking about pure jiu jitsu schools, not MMA gyms.

Right now 98% of pure jiu jitsu schools are gi schools, that's why most jiu jitsu players come from the gi. That's why ADCC is filled with gi guys.

Jean Jacques, Marcelo and Rafa are the greatest ADCC competitors ever and all 3 focus on gi techs that work nogi :)

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Been saying this for a while. Also, due to the popularity of the gi, there are more options to train full time for gi players than no gi players. That will also produce a disproportionate amount of superior grapplers regardless of which uniform they dawn.

That said, Dean Lister is in the elite class and he trains like maybe 2% gi throughout the year and kills in ADCC.

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Originally Posted by Jesse Briggs

Yeah it's frustrating spending hours getting the spider guard tight then you want to be an mma fighter and all your sweet shit went out the door!

There was an interview with Vinny Magalhaes a few episodes back, I like how he put it, saying its good in the very beginning of your training, to slow the game down, learn some of the traditional self defense aspects of it early on. I almost see it like a history
Lesson , so you know why certain concepts developed etc. if you don't get caught up in it, it can help you to remove certain things that you may be doing that are unnecessary in no gi, but you have to surround yourself with pretty progressive practitioners for that to work.
If you decide you are going to be a sport jiu jitsu competitor, in gi, it's a must to train in it. When I was fighting Amateur I trained half and half and didn't give what I was working much thought, just whatever my coach wanted me to do. If i could go back, i would have done it differently. Right now I'll go back and forth 6 months mostly gi, 6 months no gi.
During my personal journey I discover things about one training in the other. For example what helped me to perfect doing a harai goshi in judo was actually going to wrestling practice and executing it with an overlook instead of gi grips, but my pummeling in wrestling is way better from judo grip fighting... I'm sure others would have maybe a harder time going back and forth, I like it because it allows me to think outside the box, ie attack gi with a no gi mindset or vice versa!

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Good post man

Thanks, Dave.