Starting to take this wrestling vs jiu jitsu personal

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Originally Posted by Daniel Valdez

I appreciate your 2c Scott, and I liked your win against the black belt, I think I saw the heel hook you got.
But you don't see my point but you are going in the right direction. I still stay fuck wrestling, but your wrong, I do know wrestling.

This is what I was trying to really get at. I'll elaborate some more. Jiu Jitsu players are not taking it personal that most, not you Scott, but most wrestlers will hug after a take down and be suffice with a draw or winning by being on top. I think if more took it personal they would find better ways to beat the hugging wrestlers (not your type of wrestler).
I'm not complaining about wrestlers so much as I am complaining about seeing jiu jitsu players losing to wrestling. And I do train, A lot.

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In Gabbys finals match in teens advanced this weekend she lost to a huge wrestler. Kid got the takedown and layed in her guard for 3 minutes. Immediately after the match I took her to the warmup mat and we went over several options on how to stop the larger, stonger wrestler from laying on you.

To me its all about angles and creating space (staying square\flat is to his advantage)...make him put his arm, legs, weight (or whatever) where you want it to be by attacking or faking attacks..forcing him to defend the back take and put his arm in a bad position etc. etc. Forcing him using strength will only waste your energy. I agree with Scott...figureing out a way to beat or counter what your opponents doing is the whole point of the game :) Worst case scenario...get better at takedowns (or stuffing them).

i definately need to get better at takedowns and stuffing them , in tournaments i either pull guard to get it to the floor or let the other guy take me down which is risky giving him alot of points to start with .

I dont respect fighters who virtually never fnesh fights now understand you cant always finesh fights but what i see with a lot of wrestlers is them not finishing fights. Martial Arts is all about fineshing your opponet not grinding them out. Jon Fitch has great bjj but always uses his wrestiling for the easy way out. Cain Velasquese is a fantastic wrestler but always tries to finesh his fights. I respect him for that. Put it this way a bjj fighter with no wrestiling would beat a wrestler with no bjj but a wrestler with a little bjj would beat a bjj fighter with a little wrestiling experiance. I guess what im trying to say is that the best thing is to have great bjj and great wrestilng but regardless of your stregnths and weaknesses always finesh fights.

I have also made the mistake of conceding the takedown to a strong boring wrestler. It was eye-opening and I promised myself, 'Never again, not without a fight at least.'

Emir, make no mistake, there is nothing easy about climbing into the cage with the best in the world and coming out victorious. No matter what means were used, ala' Fitch.

Just be a good grappler! Judo, BJJ, Catch, Submission Grappling, Freestyle, etc. DO IT ALL! Do as much as you can. Learn as much as you can from everywhere.

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Originally Posted by VJ Bella

In Gabbys finals match in teens advanced this weekend she lost to a huge wrestler. Kid got the takedown and layed in her guard for 3 minutes. Immediately after the match I took her to the warmup mat and we went over several options on how to stop the larger, stonger wrestler from laying on you.

To me its all about angles and creating space (staying square\flat is to his advantage)...make him put his arm, legs, weight (or whatever) where you want it to be by attacking or faking attacks..forcing him to defend the back take and put his arm in a bad position etc. etc. Forcing him using strength will only waste your energy. I agree with Scott...figureing out a way to beat or counter what your opponents doing is the whole point of the game :) Worst case scenario...get better at takedowns (or stuffing them).

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Totally agree I have wrestled since I was 8 and I used to refuse to wrestle anytime other than when I was teaching our wrestling class. Its about learning to counter or defend just like in BJJ/Judo/ Whatever. I can tell you that a wrestlers body control and hips can take a lifetime to learn and once you get that it is hard to deal with, this is why people get pissed. Learn to incorporate them together and that is a nasty combo. I feel my wrestling has gotten much better since I incorporated them together. And saying fuck wrestling wether offense or defense will only limit your potential as a "grappler" it about the whole package not just one aspect if you have the time and dedication.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Emir, make no mistake, there is nothing easy about climbing into the cage with the best in the world and coming out victorious. No matter what means were used, ala' Fitch.

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i COMPLETLEY understand that i respect all fighters but more-so who finesh fights ala' BJ Penn and Cain Velasqueze ect. During the Fitch vs Penn countdown Fitch said "i want to be known and become champion for grinding my opponets out" and bj said something back on how thats a stupid way to become champion and make your mark. But no doubt i respect all fighters, but gotta give those who finesh fights at the elite level a little more credit.

In MY personal opinion (which will be disagreed with by most in the MMA community), I would say Wrestling is probably the most beneficial "martial art" in a MMA fighters arsenal. Even though It wont finish a fight for you.. It allows you to dictate what game you are going to play.. Because a really good wrestler is going to either take you down and work the ground game, or stuff takedowns and keep it on his feet.. So If you take the best striker in MMA and stick him against a great wrestler, theres a good chance that wrestler can win by taking it on the ground. And if you take an excellent grappler and put him against a wrestler.. Its going to be VERY difficult to take that fight to the ground. And as long as the wrestler has better standup, he could win that fight too. He's just got to be better at either striking or the ground game, and if he is.. thats most likely the game youre going to be playing.

(Though I would say the biggest threat to the future of that logic is 10th planet. Not to try and make it sound as though 10th planet is some new end-all ground game of MMA. But now that jiuj-jitsu practitioners are learning the clinch game, rubber-guard, and learning to avoid damage from the bottom.. I wont be surprised if we start seeing a lot more great MMA style grapplers pulling guard in the next few years. Especially now that we are seeing twisters in the UFC. it wont be long until this style starts getting a little more popular.. and I think then it'll be time for another big shift in the strategy of a lot of MMA fighters)

THIS THREADS BEEN HIJACKED.

It was created to spread an a frustration. I believe that jiu jitsu people are losing to wrestlers not because there wrestling isn't good enough but because there jiu jitsu is not being groomed to beat the wrestler.
This thread was created when fighters were winning primarily by wrestling and great jiu jitsu guys were losing because they were playing an "anti-wrestling" game.
Jiu Jitsu people need to get better at beating the wrestler not trying to be the wrestler. People don't understand I have on and off wrestled since I was 10. I do Judo. I understand the become a whole fighter aspect. But make no mistake, I'm a jiu jitsu practioner.
Plain and simple, MMA fighters that call themselves jiu jitsu practitioners that aren't top level wrestlers need to get a jiu jitsu game tailored to beat the wrestler and they need to aggressively train it. Anti wrestling and thinking that you can be GSP and get a world class wrestling game is not only ignorant, its misguiding training time. Learning wrestling is one thing, taking time away from jiu jitsu trying to master wrestling is wrong and wasting time.

I leave you with this last comparison to try and spell out what I'm saying. Its like world class BJJ fighters that learn boxing and instead using what they learned so that they can get the fight to the ground and win via submission, they play the boxing game, forget about getting the fight to the ground, and get knocked out.