Denny Prokopos Vs Nathan Orchard EBI-2 Finals

So first of all why would any athlete or team care about what the public is betting on? That is the stupidest argument brought up on this post! Secondly Denny didn't do anything out of what any problems team or athlete does and that is have a game plan. Everyone here watches UFC and I assume bets on that and how many fights have been game planned there? I remember Condit avoiding Diaz and it was horrible but Condit won with his game plan. Bottom line is the match was exciting as hell and Nathan went hard at Denny and he was able to escape. Outside of the desire for both of them to "attack" at 100% that is the only complaint but Nathan did and it took everything Denny had to escape those. In OT which is always more exciting in every sport anyways they both went for the kill. In an age of non respectable athletes appreciate honesty from one and again the match was awesome so enjoy the match and quit complaining. It was a million times better than most UFC fights

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by imported_scott

So first of all why would any athlete or team care about what the public is betting on? That is the stupidest argument brought up on this post! Secondly Denny didn't do anything out of what any problems team or athlete does and that is have a game plan. Everyone here watches UFC and I assume bets on that and how many fights have been game planned there? I remember Condit avoiding Diaz and it was horrible but Condit won with his game plan. Bottom line is the match was exciting as hell and Nathan went hard at Denny and he was able to escape. Outside of the desire for both of them to "attack" at 100% that is the only complaint but Nathan did and it took everything Denny had to escape those. In OT which is always more exciting in every sport anyways they both went for the kill. In an age of non respectable athletes appreciate honesty from one and again the match was awesome so enjoy the match and quit complaining. It was a million times better than most UFC fights

---

I don't think any athlete should care about what anyone would bet on. I can't speak for what Joseph Hackey said.

I disagree that OT is more exciting. In grappling I would rather see a match contested where any and all positions and transitions are possible. Do I think that the OT forma of EBI is way more exciting than a referee or judge's decision? Hell yeah. 110% yes absolutely.

My only real issue as a spectator is this. Denny and Orchard would both fuck me up. But let's say I get to do an EBI match with either one, and I play super tight defense to get to OT. All of a sudden I get to start in positions that I would never realistically get an opportunity to attack from, had I played according to what Eddie Bravo had in mind when he created all of this. Denny didn't only say that he was playing a defensive strategy. I think had he only said that the reaction by myself and others would be very different. he explicitly came out and said he did not want to even try to submit or "execute" Nate Orchard. That's very different than just being defensive. You can play a defensive or counter attack strategy and still find plenty of opportunities for submissions.

Eddie Bravo created EBI in the spirit of grapplers going all out for the finish. The whole point of this has been to discourage that strategy, so when arguably Eddie's top guy comes out and says that he basically did the exact opposite of what seems to be the spirit of EBI, it's just kind of weird. I have no issues with game plans at all. But Denny didn't say that was his game plan until later. I have no issue with game planning. I just think it's a little odd to have a game plan that explicitly states that you're going to avoid trying to submit somebody in the finals match of a submission-only tournament. Just think about that for a second.

I'm not complaining at all, and you might not have been talking about me. I think EBI 1 was awesome, and everything I've seen from EBI 2 is awesome. I can't wait to see everything else, and I think EBI has a bright future and I'm glad that it does. I'm a big fan of Eddie, Denny, Orchard, Geo, Boogey, Glover, Cooper, Tonon, Yoshida, and everyone involved in both of the first 2 events. I do think it's way better than most UFC fights. I just think the revelations from Denny around the match with he and Orchard are sort of weird, but that doesn't take away the fact that I am enjoying the fuck out of everything Eddie and 10p are doing.

I wonder if they need to get rid of overtime? It'd hard to follow, even for fellow grapplers let alone the general public, and it doesn't even really accomplish what it is supposed to. Both this bout and in the previous EBI final, the overtime didn't give a decisive winner and the ref had to go to a time keeper to find out who the winner was. When the winners hand was raised it was a surprise to everyone. What's the point of that?

How about this. It's a submission only tournament. If there is no submission, you both lose.

The betting is a non-argument. Anyone can play a defensive strategy to win in the OT. It's EBI's job from here on out to find a way to stop that (yellow cards) or to discourage it (eddie's hype talks or community backlash like what's happening here).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Nall

I disagree that OT is more exciting. In grappling I would rather see a match contested where any and all positions and transitions are possible. Do I think that the OT forma of EBI is way more exciting than a referee or judge's decision? Hell yeah. 110% yes absolutely.

---

And how would you setup an overtime where all transitions are possible? Just give them an extra 5 minutes? What if nothing more happens in those 5 minutes again? Judge it on points? Then people will just wait for the time points count and play the point game. The way ADCC works right now, both are started on the feet and the win goes to the wrestler. It's incredibly boring defensive wrestling between subpar wrestlers. The point of the OT in EBI is action and giving the win to the better JJ practitioner, not wrestler.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joseph Hachey

I wonder if they need to get rid of overtime? It'd hard to follow, even for fellow grapplers let alone the general public, and it doesn't even really accomplish what it is supposed to. Both this bout and in the previous EBI final, the overtime didn't give a decisive winner and the ref had to go to a time keeper to find out who the winner was. When the winners hand was raised it was a surprise to everyone. What's the point of that?

How about this. It's a submission only tournament. If there is no submission, you both lose.

---

When a fight goes to decision, no one knows who is going to win. There is a moment of buildup to see who gets the decision. Ref walks over, pauses and raises the winner's hand. Same here, I think it works great. It also leaves the match in the competitor's hands. Their skill determines their escape/sub times. I also think it worked great in the finals you are noting that it supposedly didn't work for. It forced action in a defensive match. What are your options? An overtime point match? A takedown battle? We know those fail? Just do it like metamoris and have a draw? I think that's ok, but rather indecisive and I don't like how the competitors can just decide to play it easy because they are ok with a draw but don't want to risk losing. With this, someone will lose and there will be action. I just think the yellow cards need to get more active. Change it to three for a DQ and use them often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ben Eddy

And how would you setup an overtime where all transitions are possible? Just give them an extra 5 minutes? What if nothing more happens in those 5 minutes again? Judge it on points? Then people will just wait for the time points count and play the point game. The way ADCC works right now, both are started on the feet and the win goes to the wrestler. It's incredibly boring defensive wrestling between subpar wrestlers. The point of the OT in EBI is action and giving the win to the better JJ practitioner, not wrestler.

---

I'm not saying I would do anything different. I think the EBI overtime format is very entertaining. I definitely wouldn't rather have it go to point. I think sub only should be sub only. ADCC does a good job of sort of blending a no points time period into all of their matches, but they're not a sub only tournament. I don't think they should be either.

Ideally I do think it would be cool to give people extra time, but then it runs into the problem you said of what happens if there's no finish? At some point you could get a match that lasts forever. So I do like the EBI overtime, and it's pretty damn exciting. I think as long as the competitors that are invited are skilled enough where it's believable that they could end up on the back or in spider web then I really enjoy watching OT. The Geo/Glover OT was one of my favorite parts of a match since Kron Gracie vs Garry Tonon.

I think Jeff Glover is doing something really cool with his new Sunday Roll Out tournament where he's changing the rules every 90 days so that people can't start gaming the system. My concern with EBI was that people might just start practicing finishing from the back and spider web and then try to hold off until OT. I think it could be cool if Eddie changed the dead zones every few tournaments. So say right before EBI 3 he announces that if a match goes to OT you can start either in the truck or with a front headlock, or a vice grip, whatever. Then the next EBI could start either from the honey hole and maybe a locked kimura grip.

Just a thought. If nothing changes I still think it's great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joseph Hachey

How about this. It's a submission only tournament. If there is no submission, you both lose.

---

In theory I like it but I don't think that's really much different than a draw. On paper it's different but in the end you still know that neither person won.

The best way to get submissions in most of your matches is still on a financial incentive basis, and I think I have a good solution. I've said it before. You pay or competitors a base level, but not that mcuh, but you tell them that everyone gets a bonus if there's a submission. You say the winner gets a cash bonus, but the loser also gets a bonus, just not as much as the winner, but still a bonus.

This way the worst possible outcome is no submission. There comes a point in even sub only matches where it's better to hang on and stall out than to risk losing the match by trying an escape or counter. If someone has their back taken and there's 2 mins left and they're just dug in like Home Alone and not moving at all, if they knew they'd get a cash bonus even if they got RNC'd or armlocked during an escape attempt, then all of a sudden the best option becomes risking getting finished. Because if they do pull of that escape and manage to win, they get that money, either in victory or defeat.

The OT is perfect and doesn't need to be changed.

I don't find it confusing at all but I know some do for whatever reason, so maybe a clear, concise explanation should be made so it is explained in the same way every time. I know I've heard Eddie explain it maybe 5 or so times now and it's explained differently each time, some better than others. Personally I think the baseball analogy of 'extra innings' works best.

I also think a continued 'pep talk' like Eddie said is all that should be needed at the start 'If you are both still fucking around on your feet 2min in, someone sit the fuck down and engage'

To me EBI is the closest to perfect rule set I've seen for grappling but if I'm watching BJJ I want to see 90% of the match on the ground not standing handsies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tim Bruhn

The OT is perfect and doesn't need to be changed.

I don't find it confusing at all but I know some do for whatever reason, so maybe a clear, concise explanation should be made so it is explained in the same way every time. I know I've heard Eddie explain it maybe 5 or so times now and it's explained differently each time, some better than others. Personally I think the baseball analogy of 'extra innings' works best.

I also think a continued 'pep talk' like Eddie said is all that should be needed at the start 'If you are both still fucking around on your feet 2min in, someone sit the fuck down and engage'

To me EBI is the closest to perfect rule set I've seen for grappling but if I'm watching BJJ I want to see 90% of the match on the ground not standing handsies.

---

I don't think the OT should be changed either. But do you think it could possibly be cool if they switched up the dead zone starting positions for the OT every few tournaments? Or do you think it should just stay spider web and back? I dig it either way.

I also like the extra innings analogy, and I think a shoot out analogy could be cool too. It might make more sense of why you'd start from the back or spider web.

Yeah man handsies in bjj sucks. I only enjoy watching standup in grappling if it's 2 guys with killer stand up. Like Rafael Lovato Jr vs Andre Galvao at Metamoris? Or Buchecha Galvao? That was pretty gangster stand up. 90% of BJJ dudes gi or no-gi I do not want to see on the feet. Great point and I hope Eddie's pep talk involves that. In Rafa Mendes and Cobrinha's first ADCC final it was a fucking barn burner. Then when they changed the rules so no one could pull guard without a penalty their matches at ADCC turned to shit (like in 2013).

I've always loved Eddie's opinion on "If you can't take anyone down after a minute or 2, just pull guard. Why pay money to ground fight and not ground fight?" Some purists might disagree with me on that.

I've known Nate for 2 years now. He lives, breathes, geeks out over jits period. He was put on this earth to do what he's doing period. I saw him go from purple belt to black in 18 months?? Nate help me out here.

Point is, he wants to submit everyone one no matter what. Friend, competitor, person breaking and entering. This is what he was trained to do by Eddie and eddies system.

Because of Nathan he's changed my whole outlook of jits and how I used it. Because of him I go for things I know put me in jeopardy of the TAP..... But, because of this I'm out of the safety boring positions I've known so well. I'll always TAP and hopefully the end result will be TAP less attack more.

Thanks brother for opening my eyes to Eddies System and your personal touch and love for jits!