Im so over bad refs and 10th planet haters

So I just got done competing in the Jiu Jitsu by the Bay competition. I was doing good and was in the Advanced Open semi finals. I caught the guy in a inverted arm bar, he tapped the crowd cheered and then I let go and stood up. The ref then says to me " I didn't tell you to stop, keep fighting". I look at him and was like " ummm what? he just tapped". The other guy realized he could keep fighting if he lied and he says " I was going to tap".The ref instructed me to keep fighting so I had to go and keep fighting I sat back from being in the guys open guard to attack the legs he took that momentum and got 2 points for a sweep and then he stalled and laid on top on me. I tried showing the ref video, a bunch of other people from other schools told the ref and event coordinator that the other guy tapped. Nothing.... So I lost my cool a little with the ref after him being a ignorant steroid freak telling me how hes been doing Jiu Jitsu before I was born blah blah blah, and that was the end of the story... WTF!!!!!!!!

Its spilt milk now, Im just venting off some steam.

That is utter horse shit brother.
Bad/ Biased refs are killing this sport, that story just makes me so fucking angry.

I understand and actually employ the it's spilt milk theory too, but ultimately what does that accomplish other than still getting fucked over?

We need to figure out the right way to cull this shit, I think we all agree we work to hard to get ripped off like we do.

i think sometimes a ref's jj background determines his reffing when a 10p soldier steps up,good shit though sir next time break the arm just in case;)

Wow, fuck that referee then. As long as you know that you won, is what matters.

Post up the video please :)

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Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

Post up the video please :)

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I just got the video up on the comp and after seeing it on the computer, it happened a lot quicker then I remember. I def think I should have held it longer. It happened really quick and his tap was a very panic tap. So I assumed it was about to break and I released because I figure as much as we all love fighting most of us have 9-5s that we need to be at the next day. I think what got to me upset was that the guy lied and the attitude of the fucking ref after the match (what isnt on tape). Im waiting for youtube to upload itll be up shorty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOaT3Sz69Zk

To play devil's advocate the ref was at the same angle as the camera, and from that perspective you can not see the tap. I'm not saying he didn't tap, just that it wasn't visable. Whoever was coaching you did an excellent job trying to keep you focused. I'm not sure where the 10th Planet bias comes in, I don't see any 10th Planet gear or anything that stands out and screams 10th Planet on the video.

There are haters out there for sure. However, its the competitors job to go out there and beat his opponent, and the ref.
It's easiest to cry "haters" when we make mistakes, lets not fall into the habit of having ready made excuses, it makes loosing too comfortable. Instead ingore the haters and go out and complete the task at hand, its the easiest way to shut them up.

the way the guy put his hands up after you let him go, clearly says"I have stopped". He looks like a dealer going on break. Bummer.
But calling the ref a steroid freak? He clearly has mastered his diet while spending hours lifting things and putting them back down. All in an attempt to be more nimble on the mats in his years of....

The video is inconclusive, and as Chris said the ref is at the same angle and doesnt seem at fault whatsoever.

Personally I would not have let the submission go so fast. I am not out to hurt anybody but this is competition.

be meaner next time man. I got fucked once now i just hold the position, you there is a pain before breaking on armlocks, I just keep em in the pain zone.

That's the most active and interested referee i've ever seen in any competition, ever
surely his wise call is what counts? -__-

Same thing has happened to my team mates enough times that I don't let go of my submissions till the ref stops me. Some guys just don't tap in competition.

Chris I love devils advocate, and liked reading your response because now that Ive had a day to chill out and look at it again I can def see what your saying and I think I did let go to fast. He tapped and I love this sport and prefer not to hurt anyone so I tend to let go. I think the fact that earlier I had a different guy in a toe hold who didn't tap and his ankle popped and crackled made me want to let go sooner with this guy because I felt bad about the previous guys ankle.
I had my 10p hoodie on in between matches etc and after my previous wins I usually throw up the 10 making it clear that I was 10p guy. Also I did this tournament last time and was decked out in purple 10p gear (the day I remembered to do laundry lol). It could be all in my head but at the end of the day I was just really pissed off because I KNOW the guy tapped. I believe in fighting with honor and when I tap I tap and will admit to it.

Lesson I learned from this..........Next time Palhares that shit :)

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

To play devil's advocate the ref was at the same angle as the camera, and from that perspective you can not see the tap. I'm not saying he didn't tap, just that it wasn't visable. Whoever was coaching you did an excellent job trying to keep you focused. I'm not sure where the 10th Planet bias comes in, I don't see any 10th Planet gear or anything that stands out and screams 10th Planet on the video.

There are haters out there for sure. However, its the competitors job to go out there and beat his opponent, and the ref.
It's easiest to cry "haters" when we make mistakes, lets not fall into the habit of having ready made excuses, it makes loosing too comfortable. Instead ingore the haters and go out and complete the task at hand, its the easiest way to shut them up.

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Just to be clear, I believe he tapped ;)

Theres a thin line that a competitor plays on between "being kind & trusting and being a hard ass competitor set on winning". Where do you draw the line? You want to trust that if someone quick taps and that they will be honest and admit the tap. Or do you hold that shit until the ref steps in and make sure you won? Its a personal question that you should have answered before stepping on the competion mat, so you don't hesitiate when the time comes. I'd also suggest having a "special cirumstance" rule, in case you change your mind in mid match. Answering those "what if" scenarios before hand makes those split second decisions alot easier. I support either mind set in my competitors as long as they are thought out and prepared for potential consequences for either.

This is not the same scenario, but relates. I recently was using a choke pass that I learned
from Bruno Bastos in competition. I never expect the opponent to tap from that pass, but even
Bruno informed me that they would sometimes tap during the pass. As I was passing, I needed
to re-adjust my grip for more leverage. Soon after the re-adjustment, the guy tapped. I let
the choke go and got up. The ref was slightly confused, and asked what had happened, and I told
him he tapped. The other guy laid on the ground, must have nearly been out, cause he laid for
a few seconds on his back, so the ref saw that he was done, and gave me the win, which I did win.
After going back and watching the video, the guy tapped before I ever re-adjusted my grip, but I didn't
see or feel it and the ref didn't see it either. He must have gotten some air when I fixed my grip,
because he quickly hides his tap and tries to fight it again...then soon tapped again.

Point being, he took the opportunity to continue the fight after his first tap, because he realized
the ref didn't see it. If he wasn't about to go out, he may have taken that same opportunity the second
time around, but luckily for me, he stayed down. I saw the second tap, but the ref didn't. Had he not
stayed down, I think I would have been in the same situation you were in. I didn't feel like he was trying
to play dirty when I saw the video, but I think his instinct and desire to win kicked in and he kept fighting.

It's easy for me to say this when they gave me the win, but it just goes to show the mindset people
have in competition, and the mindset you have when you've got pride and emotion involved in a fight.
I have had my arm cranked really fucking hard...as I'm sure everyone here has had. When I tap, it's
because I want the other guy to let that shit go, and I like to think that I would be completely honest
about it, so I hope my opponent will do the same...but it seems that isn't always the case, and competition
brings out the best and worst in some people.

Since then, I have taken to what Zog said...making my mind up about how I'm going to go about
my business before I get into those situations.

As a guy who's never competed, I'm learning a lot from this thread, so the lesson learned and shared is not in vain.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Just to be clear, I believe he tapped ;)

Theres a thin line that a competitor plays on between "being kind & trusting and being a hard ass competitor set on winning". Where do you draw the line? You want to trust that if someone quick taps and that they will be honest and admit the tap. Or do you hold that shit until the ref steps in and make sure you won? Its a personal question that you should have answered before stepping on the competion mat, so you don't hesitiate when the time comes. I'd also suggest having a "special cirumstance" rule, in case you change your mind in mid match. Answering those "what if" scenarios before hand makes those split second decisions alot easier. I support either mind set in my competitors as long as they are thought out and prepared for potential consequences for either.

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Great post.

The conclusion that I'm coming to is: if the guy taps, don't immediately let go until the ref jumps in. Hold onto it and don't crank. Wait until the ref splits you or at least get verbal confirmation from your opponent so the ref sees before you let go all the way. If not, crank that shit.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nunja

Chris I love devils advocate, and liked reading your response because now that Ive had a day to chill out and look at it again I can def see what your saying and I think I did let go to fast. He tapped and I love this sport and prefer not to hurt anyone so I tend to let go. I think the fact that earlier I had a different guy in a toe hold who didn't tap and his ankle popped and crackled made me want to let go sooner with this guy because I felt bad about the previous guys ankle.
I had my 10p hoodie on in between matches etc and after my previous wins I usually throw up the 10 making it clear that I was 10p guy. Also I did this tournament last time and was decked out in purple 10p gear (the day I remembered to do laundry lol). It could be all in my head but at the end of the day I was just really pissed off because I KNOW the guy tapped. I believe in fighting with honor and when I tap I tap and will admit to it.

Lesson I learned from this..........Next time Palhares that shit :)

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Paul Harris that shit :D

That's super-shitty, Mike Nunja. The worst part is that the douche you were fighting wasn't honest enough to tell the ref you made him tap.

It was pretty obvious by the way your opponent threw his hands up that he admitted defeat. The ref should've noticed that. It sucks cause now a nice guy, who competed with compassion for his fellow JJ players, is going to have to crank the shit out of everything and not let go until the ref prys him off. It's hard to be the better man, and when people lie they leave you no choice but to suspend civility and get savage on their ass.

I've had issues with letting go to early too, i've never had my opponent say that he didn't tap... I'm more disappointed with your opponent than the ref. It should be a respect thing. If I know my opponent got me I'm not gonna lie to try to get a win that I can't truly be proud of.

Someone sent me a interesting link about this ref and the guy who lied about taping. Its old crap but it just confirms that the guy who was refing was the guy I was fighting's instructor. What fucking bull shit. The guy I went against is the guy in the middle bottom and his instructor/ref is the guy above him. Fucking hate liars, im still bitter haha

http://www.darciolirajiujitsu.com/?a...source=message

Wow that is some bullshit.

we had one of our guys caught in a triangle ( arm not across ), they both roll and our guy bases with his hand to prevent the roll. as he bases it makes ONE slap noise and the ref called it a tap. after herzog insisting he was basing and not tapping the ref agreed to put him back into the triangle NOW with the arm across. pretty pointless now because now our boy was tired from fighting it off the first time and in a worse position. im sure it wasnt 10p hate. just telling the story

happens to the best of us man i threw a kid in the finals at grapplers quest, when we hit the ground i tried to hold him down and gain position but we ended in a scramble ended up in my guard gave him two points then got layed on the rest of the match. You know you won dude that is all that matters it doesnt matter how well you do in competition it matters how hard you train, there's a quote i like it goes something like "Whether you trained jiu-jitsu and tapped everyone or got tapped by everyone you still trained jiu-jitsu"

Finally watched this, it slipped thru the cracks. By the camera angle, I couldn't tell if he tapped or not, he definitely didn't tap with his left hand and I couldn't see his right hand, but you definitely reacted like someone who just tapped a dude out, so I believe you. You just don't let someone go and stand up in the middle of a competition unless they tapped.

That said, Mike, I LOVE watching you smash in competition :)

the ref may have not seen him tap. both ref and the camera had the same angle and i couldnt see him tap. he did react like he did tap though.

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Originally Posted by Compella

It was pretty obvious by the way your opponent threw his hands up that he admitted defeat. The ref should've noticed that. It sucks cause now a nice guy, who competed with compassion for his fellow JJ players, is going to have to crank the shit out of everything and not let go until the ref prys him off. It's hard to be the better man, and when people lie they leave you no choice but to suspend civility and get savage on their ass.

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Yup when I first started competing I had a lapel choke on a guy (I know shame on me I have seen the light and shed my pijamas lol) and I thought I heard the ref say stop. I lossened the choke but didnt let go and asked if he said stop. He then stopped the fight and penalized me for talking during the match. So he had to drag me off him the second time that I caught the choke, as well as every other fight he reffed me that day. I wasnt holding on shit to be an asshole, but that ref clearly had "strict rules" before safety in mind

That armbar is slick, gotta look at that in training

just saw the video and while it is not clear from the angle if he tapped the way he pops up along with the face he had on shows that he thought he lost. sometimes refs take the whole power trip to the head i hope you never have to deal with him again

Shit happens, just for a laugh here's a match I lost by toehold, in a comp where toeholds were illegal and at least one grappler was dq'd for using a toehold prior to my match http://youtu.be/MEf3Lqcv9kU

The point is a lot of the officials at these events have no fucking clue what they are doing. But without them we wouldnt be able to compete (nor would we get served past 10pm at the drivethru) so god love em.

looks to me that the ref made a mistake because he was not focused on the match he was reffing. watch his body language.

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Originally Posted by Chris Garry

Shit happens, just for a laugh here's a match I lost by toehold, in a comp where toeholds were illegal and at least one grappler was dq'd for using a toehold prior to my match http://youtu.be/MEf3Lqcv9kU

The point is a lot of the officials at these events have no fucking clue what they are doing. But without them we wouldnt be able to compete (nor would we get served past 10pm at the drivethru) so god love em.

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i agree half of the time refs put themselfs in dumb angles so that they can see the work that is being done and or they have no clue if any holds are banned for that match btw that was sick dude that guy looked to be alot bigger then you and you still took it to him like a madman

He's lucky your a nice guy. One more tick and that thing was popping!!

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Originally Posted by Mike Nunja

So I just got done competing in the Jiu Jitsu by the Bay competition. I was doing good and was in the Advanced Open semi finals. I caught the guy in a inverted arm bar, he tapped the crowd cheered and then I let go and stood up. The ref then says to me " I didn't tell you to stop, keep fighting". I look at him and was like " ummm what? he just tapped". The other guy realized he could keep fighting if he lied and he says " I was going to tap".The ref instructed me to keep fighting so I had to go and keep fighting I sat back from being in the guys open guard to attack the legs he took that momentum and got 2 points for a sweep and then he stalled and laid on top on me. I tried showing the ref video, a bunch of other people from other schools told the ref and event coordinator that the other guy tapped. Nothing.... So I lost my cool a little with the ref after him being a ignorant steroid freak telling me how hes been doing Jiu Jitsu before I was born blah blah blah, and that was the end of the story... WTF!!!!!!!!

Its spilt milk now, Im just venting off some steam.

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Something similar happened to me, the ref said I had heel hooked the girl...dude I was belly down and didn't even have her heel. I literally caused a scene. threw things, and acted like an asshole. The ref tried to pay me off by giving me $20...lol. I crumbled it up and told him I came here to fight not to be paid off and threw it at him. My only saving grace was that VJ knew the head ref and he got me a rematch. And then I won and celebrated. Yes, I'm an asshole. But, don't DQ me for some shit I didnt do. Here's the video. http://<a href="http://www.youtube.c...HsIrXk2TlI</a> I'm sorry that you didnt get your win...its not fair. Next time, just don't let go until the ref stops the fight...or say..."he's tapping ref!" That's just my little blue belt advice. I'm sure you've heard it from others as well. Keep on keepin on brother.

What happens if you get a sub, then while doing it, you yell, "REFF!!!!!! REEEEEFFF!!!" So he can watch to see if you get the tap?...Its dumb I know, but just a thought.