Guillotine shutting down my half guard

Maybe you all can give me some suggestions. My problem is not the guillotine itself because no one ever finishes it on me (I have good submission defense... I'm bragging a little ;) lol), but it shuts down my half guard path (lockdown > Underhooks > whip up > seatbelt > oldschool > electric chair > etc.). Most guys are happy to just let you sweep to try and sink the choke, but I'm looking to continue the path instead of worrying about defending the guillotine. I was rolling with Mike Lee (2nd degree black - belt De La Riva) a few hours ago and his go-to move from the top of half guard is the arm-in guillotine off of the wizzer. The problem is that we stalemated as I defended the choke, each waiting for the other to make a mistake. Any tips on where I can continue the path? I'm getting tired of sweeping into the guillotine and having to defend (although it is a great neck workout :p).

One of my partners does the same thing to me except with a darce. As soon as a whip up the darce is coming. After a bunch of times I figured out a couple ways to avoid or defend. One is once whipping up instead of sitting there waiting for to
Attack and me figuring out what I wanna do ( which is where he woul catch me) i started immediately attacking. So there wasn't a pause between my whip up and the attacking sweep, that helped. Also do u know the mechanic sweep? Taking your arm around the hip and either placing your hand high
Up on his shoulder pinching his arm. That will stop him from reaching in ( works for darce I assume for guillotine because from that position they're both related). The mechanism sweep part is swimming that arm between you and your partner and grabbing his wrist not allowin him to base for the sweep or attack with it.

Try getting really deep dbl underhooks and keep your head tucked in to his chest/stomach area and he should have a lot of problems trying to guillotine you.

there are a couple of things that you can do to prevent this but there are two main things that you should keep in mind.

1. (most important) It is easier to maintain posture than to lose it and get it back. To illustrate this point allow someone to plum the back of your head (Muay Thai style) and look at the ceiling. Once you have stiffened and locked your neck into place encourage your your friend to try and break down your neck posture. Maintain good posture looking straight up.

Next relax and let them keep their grip. Place your chin on your chest and allow your opponent to hold your head in place. Then inform them not to let you straighten out your neck. Then with them keeping good downward pressure try to straighten out your neck...it's never going to happen.

Now we can start to apply this to the ground. Maintain your neck straight at all times. When it comes time to sweep, or move your body make sure to do it laterally with your hips and not through bridging. This will allow you to maintain good posture with your neck. If your opponent does start to break down your neck make sure to straighten it out again, not by using your neck muscles, but rather by moving your body in line with your neck. This typically involves moving your hips in a reverse shrimp motion (under your opponent).

If your opponent snatches your head in transition as you are making a sweep make sure to stay laying on your side and attempt to fight the grip of the guillotine. Most people make the mistake of finishing a sweep and that's really where you get in trouble. If you stay laying on your side more often than not your opponent will have a hard time building the force to tap you here. Wait it out and fight the grip of the Guillotine from your side.

depending on who shows up to class tonight I can try and film this concept, this movement and this mid transition for you if you are having a hard time understanding it.

hope this helps.

Thanks for the feedback guys. The problem isn't that I'm getting caught in the middle of a sweep, it's that when I reach under for a leg (from half guard seatbelt) to sweep I have to expose myself for the guillotine from the top for a split second. What I'm looking for is a way to shut down the guillotine before it happens. Obviously Mike is very experienced being a 2nd degree black belt, and with that comes patience. Once he has his hands clasped and has forced me to defend, he is content with waiting for me to move and risk getting choked. My problem is that he nullifies my half guard sweeps by threatening the guillotine as soon as I reach for a leg, forcing me to defend before I can shift his weight... leaving us in a stalemate.

do you clasp your hands behind his ass for the old school?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ084KXhcm4

best video I could find real quick. Close enough. I try and get my left arm a little lower, right on his thigh, and I try and get around his foot, not the shin, with my right. My hands clasp more around his ass, not waist. I smash my right shoulder into his calf and my forehead is tight to his thigh. I also shrug my right shoulder to my ear. Stay real tight during whole sweep. There should not be room for him to get his arm around your neck. I sometimes am able to grasp his foot with my left and really pull myself down and in tight. But don't always get that!

Also, try setting up from perfect doubles, like eddied says, your very safe here. Constantly try and roll him onto his face so he needs his arms as base, then while your face is tight to his belly, pull hard so he needs to base with his arms, pull your right arm out of perfect double and and slide it under his foot and reclasp hands. Now he can most likely use his arms again at this point but you should be very tight as described above.

One thought... Not every guard will work on everyone / every time. Maybe he's just real good at that choke from h guard top. Try stomping to butterfly guard or something. Is this Happening with other people or just him?

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Originally Posted by Terriebourgeois

Thanks for the feedback guys. The problem isn't that I'm getting caught in the middle of a sweep, it's that when I reach under for a leg (from half guard seatbelt) to sweep I have to expose myself for the guillotine from the top for a split second.

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You have to keep your head tucked in really deep after the whip up. That will force them to crossface you to get to your neck. You should be able to ec or old school before they can get to you. This is if Im understanding what your saying of course lol:cool:

It's not the sweeps. What's happening is he's trying to catch the guillotine in the transition from the seatbelt (after the whip up) to reaching for a leg. He hips down to create a little space as soon as I reach for a leg.

It doesn't happen with anyone else because I try not to leave space for it, but that little hip bump as I move is what he uses to create the space. I guess I'll try to shoot under his hips faster, but I'm sure he'll have an answer for that too LOL!:rolleyes:

The guy has over 15 years of experience vs. my 5 years, so maybe it's just something that will come with more mat time. I'm not getting choked, my game is just getting stuffed, so it's a little frustrating. I guess I was just hoping for a minor detail that I may have overlooked.

Thanks for the input guys! I know it's hard to give advice unless you physically see the position play out. Feel free to keep the advice coming though, it can't hurt!

deep half

just keep your chin really tight to your shoulder when you come off the whip up. its like doing a double leg td in mma. you have to avoid the guillotine so you keep your shoulder tight to your chin and theres no space. this is how i keep them from getting in. ive been in the exact spot your describing n that helped me. :)

IMO, keeping things tight is the opposite thing you would want to do in this situation. By keeping tight, you're bringing your head closer to your opponent which is giving him or her an opportunity for the guillotine, arm in guillotine, Japanese neck tie, etc. Half guard is my favorite game to play and I've come across your situation many times. For individuals that like to attack the neck from half guard, don't give them the opportunity to. Don't leave your head close to them. Keep your distance. Get on your side and utilize a knee shield. Create a frame with your arms and hands to prevent your opponent from flattening you back out and launch your attacks from there. Watch Caio Terra's half guard. That is the half guard game you want to play if you want to prevent neck attacks. Head close = opportunity! Head far = no opportunity! Plus you don't waste as much energy or strength trying to hold and keeping you head in tight and fighting off a cross face or a stiff arm from your opponent.

I can definitely understand where you're coming from, but I hate the knee shield half guard. I finish a lot of toe holds and heel hooks from there, so I've pretty much scared myself out of ever using it. Plus if you don't get the toe hold you can drop your weight when they extend the leg to pass it. However, I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new.

I will definitely check out Caio Terra and see what you're talking about. I might consider playing the knee shield half guard if I find anything worth risking the leg locks. I'm pretty good at defending leg locks, but I've got a bad knee so I tend to keep my distance from any leg compromising positions.

Of course there's a counter to everything, and that is the beauty of the art, but it seems like it's a pick your poison type of situation if you don't sweep or replace guard quickly.

You gotta shut that shit down son! Work on your sub defence.

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Originally Posted by JayPagesJJ

IMO, keeping things tight is the opposite thing you would want to do in this situation.

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For the paths that he wants to take staying tight is essential, Im not saying what you said is wrong in any way so please dont take what Im sayin as such Jay. To be able to old school or ec you have to be tucked in. A great counter to any of the darce jnt attacks is the Mechanic sweep.

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Originally Posted by Terriebourgeois

I can definitely understand where you're coming from, but I hate the knee shield half guard. I finish a lot of toe holds and heel hooks from there, so I've pretty much scared myself out of ever using it. Plus if you don't get the toe hold you can drop your weight when they extend the leg to pass it. However, I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new.

I will definitely check out Caio Terra and see what you're talking about. I might consider playing the knee shield half guard if I find anything worth risking the leg locks. I'm pretty good at defending leg locks, but I've got a bad knee so I tend to keep my distance from any leg compromising positions.

Of course there's a counter to everything, and that is the beauty of the art, but it seems like it's a pick your poison type of situation if you don't sweep or replace guard quickly.

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I hear ya. Just as you said gotta pick your poison. Just find that happy median between the two.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Woolsey

For the paths that he wants to take staying tight is essential, Im not saying what you said is wrong in any way so please dont take what Im sayin as such Jay. To be able to old school or ec you have to be tucked in. A great counter to any of the darce jnt attacks is the Mechanic sweep.

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I hear ya. You're right. I guess I gotta re-read what he was saying. I thought what he was looking for was to avoid it all together. I thought it was moves like old school which was what was getting him caught mid sweep. I didn't see he wanted to continue on the path.

I think the mechanic sweep is what I was looking for! Thanks to Jeremy Gates and Brandon Woolsey for the suggestion. I had already thought of pinching the wizzer arm to help stop him from connecting his hands, but I hadn't realized the sweep was there. Getting back in the gym and hitting the sweep in about an hour. I spent my whole weekend thinking about the possibilities and I can't believe I overlooked the sweep LOL! Many thanks guys! I truly appreciate the help :D

I love using the guillotine to pass, hard to stop against somone who is always hunting for it, Marcelo loves to use it to pass

Like others said, got to keep that head and chin tight and leave no space, guys always get lazy and just leave that head hanging, once it gets locked it puts you in a pass or tap situation, dont give them that, protect your neck